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  #46  
Old 08-26-2006, 10:53 PM
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All I do know is that the cam gear was at TDC, and the crank pulley was basically in the same position as it is now. I didn't know about the markings, so I don't know the exact position, but there are these plastic things on the pulley that were at the same spot they are now. I didn't mark anything.

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  #47  
Old 08-26-2006, 11:00 PM
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Bob
 
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I suggest a restart according to the procedure (probably missing a few obvious detail steps) I mentioned before. If you are as much as 30 degrees off this could be enough to bring a valve in contact with the piston. I doubt it's that much but better safe than sorry. You could do as BC said and tense up the chain and try and turn it. See how far you are off before going more drastic with pulling cam and lifters.

When you retime, you absolutely must mark the chain and cam gear before removing it to reinstall lifters. Use nail polish..works great. Or testors paint.

The big problem is the IP. AFAIK, you cannot retime it by eyeballing it. You'll need the RIV tool to get it right and may involve spinning the IP shaft (if you don't have any rotation left in the pump).

Do you have an FSM? If you don't let me know and I can send cam removal pages...
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1982 300TD 210K miles ("The Replacement" aka "The Anvil") - SOLD
1979 300SD 245K miles (never ending project)
2007 Pinarello F3:13
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  #48  
Old 08-26-2006, 11:30 PM
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No, I don't have a service manual yet. I ordered one, but it hasn't arrived. I was trying to follow what you were saying about tappets, but I don't even know what that is, so I guess if you can get me some instructions on how to do that it would help a lot. So the engine should run as it is right now? But it would make the valve and pistons hit each other? This car always had a tapping noise in the engine, I always thought it was an exhaust leak, but is it possible that this was caused by the car being out of time? It also had pretty crappy power when I bought it. I resealed the ALDA, and ended up adjusting it out the whole way to try and get some low end power, but it never had real good power in the midrange. I wonder if this was also a symptom of bad timing?
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  #49  
Old 08-26-2006, 11:35 PM
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I did a chain by myself on a 617. I dropped it twice on both ends all the way down in the motor and fished it out with magnets and hangers. Each time the passenger side lined up on the cam sprocket and the drivers did also when I pulled hard to overcome the resistence. I never moved anything once the chain dropped. I am not excited that you turned the crank without the chain connected. I do not know if you are able to absolutely verify that the crank is in the exact position as it was. If you absolutely can you may be ok.

If he is off by a tooth or two will he bend some valves? What is the worse fate and how off does it have to be to really create damage? Can he try to start it and if it does not start or runs horrible, go from there?

I am not recommending anything. I am scared and curious myself.
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99 E300 TURBODIESEL Astral Silver 282K - AMG brakes, suspension, monoblocks, speedo & interior - Full Load Maxed on IP by custom Speed Tuning USA Chip - T3/T4 Garrett - EGR/MAF delete
98 E300 TURBODIESEL Alexandrite Green on black leather 289K
95 E300 DIESEL Green Queen 267K SOLD
84 300D 216k SOLD
87 300D 299K #22 head - intercooler - full load adj. - 8sec 0-60mph - SOLD
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  #50  
Old 08-26-2006, 11:46 PM
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You are right, I shouldn't have moved the crank. I also shouldn't have attempted this without having a good helper. I believe I could have done it myself, if I would have been more careful about always having a vice grip on the chain to hold it to the cam gear. But I didn't realize there was so much tension on the drivers side, I thought just having the chain wrapped over the sprocket would keep it there, boy was I wrong.
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  #51  
Old 08-27-2006, 12:00 AM
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I though the same thing. I really considered myself lucky. You may be too. Hang in there and more knowledgeable members will help you through this.
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99 E300 TURBODIESEL Astral Silver 282K - AMG brakes, suspension, monoblocks, speedo & interior - Full Load Maxed on IP by custom Speed Tuning USA Chip - T3/T4 Garrett - EGR/MAF delete
98 E300 TURBODIESEL Alexandrite Green on black leather 289K
95 E300 DIESEL Green Queen 267K SOLD
84 300D 216k SOLD
87 300D 299K #22 head - intercooler - full load adj. - 8sec 0-60mph - SOLD
76 300D 214K SOLD
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  #52  
Old 08-27-2006, 12:03 AM
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I went out and looked at the whole thing again, and I am pretty sure that if the chain is out, it's only by a tooth or two. I am basing this on the fact that the crank pulley is definitely almost in the same exact position it was before taking the old chain off with the cam being at TDC both before and now. So, that means that I have been driving it like this for a while, and probably so have the previous 4 owners because I have their service records, and none make mention of the head being off (and I know it was off at some point because they wore off a bunch of aluminum above the bolts). So now I need to know how to get it back to where it's supposed to be, in layman's terms preferably. And the big question is if I get both the cam and the crank to TDC, what consequence will this have on the injection timing? I do know that the IP was replaced with a used one a few years ago, because it is noted in one of the service records. So I would imagine they timed it according to the current situation of the cam and crank being off kilter. Also, what kind of wear could have running it like this have done to the engine?
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  #53  
Old 08-27-2006, 12:05 AM
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Bob
 
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tappets are the metal cylinders that the cam lobes press on to actuate the spring that opens the valve. Sometimes called lifters (though not really in an OHC design), sometimes called cam followers. They lift right out with a magnet once the cam is removed.

I cannot speculate on whether your engine will run or not 'as-is' since you no longer really know where you are with respect to the overall timing. You can try and spin the motor by hand and see if it makes a complete smooth rotation. If it stops rotating easily, then you must stop and remove the cam.

that chain is heaving and once the link has been removed, it'll drop like a stone.

Give me an e-mail address and I can send cam removal FSM pages. but not tonight...keg party is starting.
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1982 300TD 210K miles ("The Replacement" aka "The Anvil") - SOLD
1979 300SD 245K miles (never ending project)
2007 Pinarello F3:13
1995 Ducati 916 (SOLD, sniff)
1999 Ducati 900SSie (SOLD)
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  #54  
Old 08-27-2006, 02:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmana View Post
I went out and looked at the whole thing again, and I am pretty sure that if the chain is out, it's only by a tooth or two. I am basing this on the fact that the crank pulley is definitely almost in the same exact position it was before taking the old chain off with the cam being at TDC both before and now.
I missed out on your escapades last evening due to an "engagement". It was much better than dealing with your problem.

Now, go back to the photo in post #30. You have a red mark in that photo that you, apparently, believe is relevant to some timing mark.

It's not.

What is necessary to know, is the reading on the crankshaft damper over to the left........by that filthy dirty bracket. The straight edge of the bracket will provide the point of the crankshaft position.

Just so we know exactly where you are, please clean off the crankshaft damper so that we can read the numbers and take another photo of the bracket and the numbers. It would be preferable if you clean off the bracket as well.

I'm not convinced that you're anywhere near 30 off because the engine won't rotate under this condition.

So, until we know exactly where this engine is, we can't go forward.
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  #55  
Old 08-27-2006, 04:46 AM
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I replaced the chain in an OM603 and M103 by myself without special tools other than zip ties so it can be done. I have a big 'learning' account so I'm not afraid to mess up

If I understand this saga, the chain is still apart and the tensioner is off. If so, I don't trust any of the alignment readings. The reading I'd trust most would be taken by holding the cam sprocket steady and turning the crank sprocket CW as far as it will go.

From what I remember rolling in a new chain is not a 'linear' process. The IP or vacuum pump will cause that sprocket to act like a capacitor. You'll turn the crank seemingly forever with no corresponding movement of the cam then 6" of chain will get sucked in. Freaky! However, it is precisely this behavior that lets you manage the task by yourself. Once you figure out the timing, no pun intended, you'll realize that you don't need constant tension on the new chain (I have it pull itself out of a can of oil) or the old chain (I let is dangle out towards the water pump).

If you've ever had the vacuum pump off, you'll know there's no way the chain is coming off the timer. When I pulled the IP off the SDL I left the timer in the chain. I put some zip ties for good measure. It's a chore to get the timer off the chain. You have to slip a shield between the timer and the chain as you slacken the chain from cam. Some line the cavity with grease so the chain sticks to the walls.

My 2 cents - there's no way the chain came off the crank or IP timer. If you're sure the chain didn't come off the cam, I'm sure cam timing is how it was before your neighbor left for his trip. 2 cents doesn't fix many bent valves :/

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  #56  
Old 08-27-2006, 09:19 AM
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Brian,
I can see the crankshaft damper, I tried taking a picture, but it's nearly impossible to get a camera in there. But I can assure you the straight edge of the bracket is about an inch to the left of the begining of the lines stamped on the crank pulley. I can see a number 20, then I see a number 10. I am assuming the TD is hidden by the belt tesioner. Then on the other side I can see the numbers go up to 40. And I also know that this is almost the same position it was at prior to taking the chain off, based on what I thought at the time was the marking (but now think is some kind of balancer glued to the pulley). The engine turns pretty smooth, but does come to a point where I can't turn it, but if I let off of it, then go back to turning it continues to turn smooth again.
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  #57  
Old 08-27-2006, 10:47 AM
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Ok, I've got to get this car put back together today, so I need to know how to get everything lined up properly. If I turn it over so the crank is at TDC, and take out the tensioner, then all I need to do is get the cam at TDC right? And from what I've been reading, the IP timing can't really get "off", unless it skipped a tooth on the sprocket, but it doesn't seem like that's a possibility. SO, I guess all I need to figure out is how to get the cam back on TDC the proper way. Can anyone guide me through this? Also, I turned the engine over 2 more times to make sure that it really is off as much as it was last night, and it still is. With the stamped line on the cam gear matched up to the line stamped on the tower, it is at about 40 which is before TDC.
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  #58  
Old 08-27-2006, 11:44 AM
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I am thinking that I might just get the cam to TDC, then undo the chain at the cam, pull it off, then turn the crank ccw till it's at TDC, then put the chain back together. This should work, right?? I'll make sure to turn it clockwise afterward to make sure it is righ. The only problem is that the master link is no longer at the cam TDC, maybe I can turn it some more till it lines up at TDC again.
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  #59  
Old 08-27-2006, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmana View Post
Ok, I've got to get this car put back together today, so I need to know how to get everything lined up properly. If I turn it over so the crank is at TDC, and take out the tensioner, then all I need to do is get the cam at TDC right? And from what I've been reading, the IP timing can't really get "off", unless it skipped a tooth on the sprocket, but it doesn't seem like that's a possibility. SO, I guess all I need to figure out is how to get the cam back on TDC the proper way. Can anyone guide me through this? Also, I turned the engine over 2 more times to make sure that it really is off as much as it was last night, and it still is. With the stamped line on the cam gear matched up to the line stamped on the tower, it is at about 40 which is before TDC.
If you are positive of the crank position, and you are positive that the cam is not aligned with the crank, the first thing to do is to set the crank at zero.

Then, check the cam marks. Most likely they will not be aligned. If they are close to 180 degrees apart, then turn the crankshaft one full turn back to 0 degrees. They should be within 20 degrees of each other. If they are not within 20 degrees, do not continue with this procedure. Remove the tensioner and see if you can get enough slack in the chain to "roll" it over the teeth of the camshaft. You'll need to bunch it upward in one place and, effectively gain one tooth by moving the bunch in a circle around the top of the sprocket. I'm not sure if there is sufficient slack to do this, but, it's preferable to removing the sprocket.

If you're not successful, then you need to remove the cam sprocket. Be careful with this. It also presents more possibilites for FUBAR. Understand the following carefully:

1) The camshaft wants to slide rearward. The sprocket prevents this. So, you should definitely block the cam behind #6 to prevent this from occurring.

2) The sprocket has a thrust washer sitting right behind it and it has a Woodruff key that is pressed into the camshaft. Both of these items may desire to go into the abyss. Your job, Jmana, should you decide to accept it, is to prevent that from happening.



Good luck Jmana. If you are caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions.
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  #60  
Old 08-27-2006, 12:03 PM
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Bob
 
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I think you'll be turning the crank for some time to get the master link back on TDC. When I marked my chain and gear and then spun around a few times, the mark on the chain was never again in alignment.

Are you sure your at 0|T on the crankshaft as per Brian's clean up the tab and wheel so we can see the marks clearly? If you can spin engine freely with that much advance/retard on the cam something is fishy.

I also think that spinning the engine without the cam in is kinda risky. It'll be a 2 man job since someone will need to keep some semblance of tension in there.

I think the better approach is get the engine to TDC, then pull cam (you will need to remove cam gear to make this work). Rather than following FSM cam removal untorquing sequence you will have to untorque ALL towers in the sequence mentioned because it is based on the cam being at TDC and there's pressure on different lobes of the cam 40 degrees away. You won't know which order to do it, so only foolproof way is to loosen all in parallel with each other. Once cam and gear are off you can reset the cam to line up the marks on the cam tower.

Do not loosen cam gear until you are at crank TDC otherwise you'll have movement issues where crank will move, cam will not.

Even after doing this, the IP timing is not certain.

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1982 300TD 210K miles ("The Replacement" aka "The Anvil") - SOLD
1979 300SD 245K miles (never ending project)
2007 Pinarello F3:13
1995 Ducati 916 (SOLD, sniff)
1999 Ducati 900SSie (SOLD)
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