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  #61  
Old 08-27-2006, 11:09 AM
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Bob
 
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Yeah, I think BC and I are in agreement. On the 603 I haven't experienced the cam wanting to slide backwards. Woodruff key absolutely. it's a tricky little guy.

While there may be enough slack in the chain to move link by link, still need to take off the cam towers, otherwise spinning cam will be impossible by hand (or becomes two man job, one pushes chain, other turns cam with wrench)

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  #62  
Old 08-27-2006, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jshadows View Post
Yeah, I think BC and I are in agreement. On the 603 I haven't experienced the cam wanting to slide backwards. Woodruff key absolutely. it's a tricky little guy.

While there may be enough slack in the chain to move link by link, still need to take off the cam towers, otherwise spinning cam will be impossible by hand (or becomes two man job, one pushes chain, other turns cam with wrench)
Thanks for the 603 info........I've not done it personally on that engine.

I'm thinking that, with sufficient slack on the tensioner side, he can roll one link all the way over the cam sprocket so that he ends up with the slack on the drive side. Then, he turns the camshaft backward to tension the drive side and check the marks.

Or, if the cam must go forward, he first turns the cam forward and takes up the slack on the tensioner side and gives it to the drive side. Then, he rolls one link backward, all the way over the cam sprocket so the slack returns to the tensioning side.

What do you think?
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  #63  
Old 08-27-2006, 11:38 AM
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Oh thank GOD!!! I got the master link back to cam TDC, took the link off, and by turning the crank pulley backward, and the cam sprocket forward, I was able to pull the chain back two teeth, which made all the darn marks line up!! Turned it over with the tensioner in, and it's still lined up at TDC!!! Amazing that 2 teeth can cause so much trouble! It seems to turn over easier too, no more hard stops to overcome. Now I just have to make the master link permanent, and I should be good to go. I really think the tension from the IP is what screwed with me. You can pull the chain back as hard as you can, but if the crank isn't in the right spot it won't release the last amount of tension needed to get it back. But by turning the crank backwards and the cam forwards I was able to get it back where it belongs.
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  #64  
Old 08-27-2006, 11:40 AM
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Good job! Keep up posted.
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  #65  
Old 08-27-2006, 11:42 AM
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just before you start it go over everything again and just to be safe again turn it over by the crank bolt if you can(if you can on the 603.. can you?)
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  #66  
Old 08-27-2006, 11:44 AM
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Good job!!

Sounds like you've got it fixed.

Do yourself a favor and turn the engine over by hand (with a socket wrench) two times..........just to be safe........after you get it fully done.

Naturally, we're making the assumption that you did not lose the IP timing..........but, after checking Jim's photos, it's unlikely.
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  #67  
Old 08-27-2006, 11:44 AM
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Bob
 
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Quote:
with sufficient slack on the tensioner side, he can roll one link all the way over the cam sprocket so that he ends up with the slack on the drive side. Then, he turns the camshaft backward to tension the drive side and check the marks.
I still think cam towers need to be off for this to happen. It will take a lot of force to get the lifters to move when they're under pressure. Could also cause issues with valve movement, no?

As long as he's got to remove the cam towers, might was well take off cam gear and avoid this longer step. The woodruff key is kinda sticky in there due to engine oil etc so will not come flying out, but still must be watched carefully. As for thrust washer, the only washer i know of is on cam bolt..cam bolt is a good 3 inches long, so washer will stay with pretty easily. risk here is low.

To give an idea of the slack in the chain that I found, I was going to install a 'newer' cam on my engine. When I got it from the machine shop all nice and clean, the sprocket was fully torqued on and I had no way to get it off without damaging the cam somehow (a vice would probably have not been a good idea). There was absolutely no way to get the cam seated with the chain over the sprocket as there is not a lot of slack to play with. I had to abandon and use my other cam. So in short, if someone wants to buy a pristine 603 cam with lifters off me, let me know...requires removing gear which i'm sure a machine shop could do.

Oh wait..sorry in short..I'm thinking cam towers are coming off. Maybe try BC's idea first. If it doesn't work, go to plan B. Plan B is not as bad as it sounds. Untorquing and retorquing towers is a PITA because it's a slow and meticulous process. If you're quick with a wrench though you can have it out in 15-30 minutes easy. maybe less..I didn't time myself last time.

And look at the positive side. You are learning a lot more about your engine...same way I learned about mine. Make a few mistakes...learn a whole lot.
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  #68  
Old 08-27-2006, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jshadows View Post

So in short, if someone wants to buy a pristine 603 cam with lifters off me, let me know...requires removing gear which i'm sure a machine shop could do.
Wouldn't an impact wrench make short work of this problem? Bet it blows out the screw in five seconds or less. A vice with soft jaws can certainly be used on the #1 cam lobe.........that camshaft is very hard.
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  #69  
Old 08-27-2006, 12:09 PM
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Bob
 
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Quote:
Wouldn't an impact wrench make short work of this problem? Bet it blows out the screw in five seconds or less. A vice with soft jaws can certainly be used on the #1 cam lobe
Probably. but since I had another working, but less visually clean cam, I just stuck with the old one. I figured the clean one would be easier to sell..but who the heck needs a cam shaft? Someone who needs one probably has problems that run much deeper than that.
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1982 300TD 210K miles ("The Replacement" aka "The Anvil") - SOLD
1979 300SD 245K miles (never ending project)
2007 Pinarello F3:13
1995 Ducati 916 (SOLD, sniff)
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  #70  
Old 08-27-2006, 12:15 PM
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Good Job,that wasnt a walk in the park.Allthough I couldnt offer any advise I have been following this thread ( Im sure I am not alone ) hoping you were able to get it straightened out.Again great job in not throwing in the towel,Johnny
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  #71  
Old 08-27-2006, 01:23 PM
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Got everything back together, and it started right up, no smoke at all (before it smoked a little when cold). The only problem is there is a rattle/ticking noise from the middle part of the engine, possibly the IP. I am thinking it's out of time now. I've read a proceedure to check it, basically you're supposed to be able to get the crank at TDC, then remove a bolt from the IP, look inside and see a notch if it's correctly timed. My problem is I don't know where this bolt is. Does anyone have a pic of it?
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  #72  
Old 08-27-2006, 01:40 PM
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To eyeball IP timing set the crank pulley to 14 ATDC then look or feel for the lug in the IP. I don't have a pic to post but look for a bolt head that takes a 17mm wrench/socket on the driver side of the IP. Points almost directly sideways to the left front shock. It might leak up to a half teaspoon of oil. Nothing to worry about. Use a mirror or slide a stiff wire up and down in the hole. If you don't see anything or feel anything, give the crank a full turn.

I'll look for a picture...

Sixto
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  #73  
Old 08-27-2006, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixto View Post
I don't have a pic to post but look for a bolt head that takes a 17mm wrench/socket on the driver side of the IP.
.........at just slightly above the oil cooler lines.........
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  #74  
Old 08-27-2006, 01:51 PM
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Here's some pics. It's difficult to explain the lug in words

In the first pic, item 11 is the plug. Just below the stop lever axis.

The second pic is a view of the IP from the rear showing the lug on that propeller thing. You can guess what you would feel if you poked through the hole with a wire depending on the position of the propeller thing. Note that the IP like the cam turns at half crank speed.

Sixto
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Attached Thumbnails
OM 603 timing chain........screwup.......-plug.jpg   OM 603 timing chain........screwup.......-lug.jpg  
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  #75  
Old 08-27-2006, 01:52 PM
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Bob
 
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BRAVO!

you can go by gut feel mechanism. Loosen IP adjustment bolts and then advance or retard IP per smoke and sound of engine. Sounds like your close enough that if you look into the IP governor plug hole (that 17mm bolt) and you may not notice a few degrees off..you can only 'hear' them. You should be able to do this with the engine running.

I'd go into to detail but a) I've only verified timing, never adjusted and b) FSM explains the bolts that need to be loosened etc.

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