I just replaced my rack damper bolt two days ago, and it seems to have stopped the paint can shaker that the engine has become when it warms up. I don't know if I have it adjusted correctly, as there really didn't seem to be any noticeable changes whether it was all the way out or all the way in.

a good pictorial is on checking timing? I remeber seeing one, i thought it was in my Haynes manual, but it must of been on the web.

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'85 300D, 'Lance',250k, ... winter beater (100k on franken-Frybrid 3 Valve Kit)
'82 300D, 'Tex', 228k body / 170k engine ... summer car
'83 300TD Cali Wagon 210k, wife's car

I say this because I have seen more than one set of detailed procedures including:
[Method #1] - Official MBZ Method - That uses a simple, overpriced tool that is nothing more than short bent-over cut-off fuel injection line attached to the output of the #1 IP "Element" and the instructions have you timing the spacing of droplets of fuel into a cup. Only an " inebriated " [aka="drunk"] German engineer could have written such a procedure!!! I don't recommend this method for to me it seems like it would be impossible to train multiple mechanics to ever come close to repeating the same test/check result and that is IMHO the true measure of the viability of such a test/check procedure... IMHO!

[Method #2] - "Well-Up Method" - Since then I learned of a similar but much easier procedured that is called the " Well-Up " test for checking the IP's timing... and then my " Indy" [Independent MBZ] friend showed me an even simplier method...

[Method #3] - " Spit-on-U Method " - that is a simplified take-off of the #2 above.

In any event all of these procedures involve turning over the engine/IP while watching for when the #1 Element begins to unload [#1 & #2] or unloads [#3]sending fuel out and up through the 5mm or 6mm steel line to the #1 injector... and all of these require a lot of patience!! Like I say, IMHO, #1 is not worth learning and as in #1, #2 also involves dissassembly of the output portion of the #1 Element of the IP, something that makes a lot of people nervous because this is done by removing the output pipe fitting that sits mid-way between the two Element shim adjustment nuts/bolts and these are an absolute "NO-NO" for all but the most experienced, intrepid, DIYers. I'm sure that MOST on this FORUM will tell you NOT TO PLAY AROUND WITH THESE SHIM BOLTS/NUTS ! So I will try to relate Method #3 to you now as it differs from #1 & #2... and when my "Indy" friend returns after 1/1/2007 double check to see that I have NOT given out poor advice! Fair enough?

#3 Spit-on-U Method -
(a) You take off the oil-filler cap so you can look inside the cam/valve cover and see when the #1 lobe is starting to come to the top...
(b) So long as the power steering pump V-belt is adjusted tight enough, you should be able to turn the engine/IP over using a 22mm box/open wrench [Turn to your right while facing the engine]. You can start noting the timing marks on the crank dampener at the front of the engine as it passes 50 deg. BTDC.
(c) Take the 1 or 2 clamps off that bind the #1 and #2 cylinder fuel lines together that prevent vibration stresses from breaking a fuel line.
(d) You then take the fuel line to the #1 cylinder [IP-to-Injector high-pressure fuel line] loose at the bottom [at the #1 IP Element fitting]... making certain that you do NOT inadvertently get a wrench on either of the two shim hold-down bolts/nuts that are close by.
(e) You push the bottom of the fuel line asside just enough to be out of your way.
(f) Now you continue to crank over the engine very slowly as you approach that 24 deg. BTDC timing mark... because when you do reach what the IP timing is set for, there will be a quick spit of fuel out of the top of the IP's #1 Element where you disconnected the fuel line. Most likely you will find that it is set at something between 15 to 22 deg. BTDC for I understand that the engine naturally changes in this direction [retards itself?] as the chain wears and "stretches".

So the above will hopefully allow you to "check" and see what your IP is currently set for. When I check our family's 3 MBZs below I found all were off 4 to 6 degrees !

Would ANYONE who has done such timing checks please PROOF read what I have somewhat quickly written above and comment!
Regards,

Perfect - I need to do IP timing as well.

But what I should of said is timing chain stretch

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'85 300D, 'Lance',250k, ... winter beater (100k on franken-Frybrid 3 Valve Kit)
'82 300D, 'Tex', 228k body / 170k engine ... summer car
'83 300TD Cali Wagon 210k, wife's car

If your question is "What is timing chain stretch"?... I know for certain that there are lots of different THREADs that talk on this subject and different explanations are offered on this FORUM about this. Try this... an Advanced SEARCH on the DIESEL DISCUSSION FORUM only and THREADs that have 10+ responses... using these SEARCH words/terms exactly: [ "timing chain" AND woodruff ]. This should give some meaningful "hits" identifying mostly THREADs that should be worth reading about this subject. Let's see IF this gives you this SEARCH result... ?
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/search.php?searchid=1054257 ... yes, it looks good... so check it out!

Quickly, my understanding is that it is changing of the effective length of these vintage engines' double timing chains due to normal wear. Much of this wear occurs in the first 20-30K miles after a new chain is installed. and this probably results in ~2 degrees of change in valve and IP timing. MBZ indicates that this "stretch" can be compensated for... up to 7 to 10 degrees but most people will want to replace the chain long before they reach 10 degrees of stretch. "Woodruff Key(s)" are used to compensate for the "stretch" and this is on the cam-shaft drive gear. After each time you use a "Woodruff " to compensate for stretch, you should at least check your IP's timing and although I do NOT believe a degree or two off in IP timing is NOT CRITICAL, with a little experience, adjusting the IP's timing back to or close to "spec" [24 Deg. BTDC for all 616 and 617 engines I believe is correct]... well it is not that hard. I corrected the 4 Deg. my 616 was off in one try. Probably beginner's luck!
Regards,

Does the symptom above sound like the start of this THREAD...??

I was doing some casual reading of a new book I just purchased, the Haynes manual for "Mercedes-Benz Diesel 123 Series"... so let me quote you from it's troubleshooting section for the likely causes for this symptom:
(1) Air filter clogged,
(2) Fault in the fuel injection pump or timer,
(3) Clogged fuel injector,
(4) Leaking head gasket...,
(5) Timing chain worn,
(6) Camshaft lobes worn, AND
(7) Contaminated fuel.
Q - What do you suppose is meant in (2) where it says "... or timer"?
I think this should have read: " Fault in the fuel injection pump or timing of this pump."
Regards,

Sam, I saw the Haynes list as well. I now have the engine out of the 'loping' zone by doing an idle adjust (wow, back out that governor pin a bit and THAT is loping).

I am going to try to score a gold pin today at the local yards...

I will read up more on the timing chain stretch to see if I can measure it myself.

dd

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'85 300D, 'Lance',250k, ... winter beater (100k on franken-Frybrid 3 Valve Kit)
'82 300D, 'Tex', 228k body / 170k engine ... summer car
'83 300TD Cali Wagon 210k, wife's car

I think they are refering to the "timing device", between the vacuum pump and the IP, never herd of one of those going bad

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1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"

Do you know something that I have not yet discovered??
I think they must have been refering to to the IP itself... don't you think?
Change "timer" to "timing" and it makes perfect sense!!
Enough... "no mos" of such tripe... who started this anyhow!? Oh yes, dat be me!
Happy New Year!

Yah, they musta meant "timing", who ever herd of a "timing device" going bad??

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1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"

...made some improvement. not the major improvement for me that some have talked about.

but, the adjustment itself has made a big difference. it also makes the car start much better.

I think my engine is now in the normal range. its not loping anymore. ill see if it improves any more with timing chain and IP timing checks, which are needed anyhow.

__________________
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'85 300D, 'Lance',250k, ... winter beater (100k on franken-Frybrid 3 Valve Kit)
'82 300D, 'Tex', 228k body / 170k engine ... summer car
'83 300TD Cali Wagon 210k, wife's car

I went through and checked my stretch, came out to a total of ~3.5 degreess.

( Using the 2mm method I got a reading of 14.5 deg. subtract 9 degrees of the new chain spec, for a total of 5.5, 3.5 over used chain spec. Verified answer with lining up the marks. )

So, no woodruff key for me, at least for now?. Is there any easy way to determine whether or not I have one installed? I would assume no. Im just not that lucky.

I am going to use sam's IP timing method to check that next.

dd

__________________
-------------------------------
'85 300D, 'Lance',250k, ... winter beater (100k on franken-Frybrid 3 Valve Kit)
'82 300D, 'Tex', 228k body / 170k engine ... summer car
'83 300TD Cali Wagon 210k, wife's car

I use the "poor mans woodruff key" Lossen the IP and bump it toward the block just a "skosh" I mark the flange where it meets the block in case theres no improvement, not, the cure for a chain that needs replacement, BUT its free and can be "undone"

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1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"

Dan - Happy New Year. Pretty soon you will be giving advice to many like myself who have advised you!! Already your check for chain stretch is something I have NOT done and therefore NOT familar with... but it's my understanding that IF you had a "Woodruff Key", you would have been able to see it on the camshaft gear while you were in under the valve cover checking the stretch... am I not right on this someone?
Stevo - Nice info/notes on your "poor-man's" Woodruff !

As to using "MY" 'spit-on-ya' IP timing check method, you just keep stroking me that way and I'll be here for ya for ever!! Seriously though, give me a little advance before you start checking the timing so I can put together my latest best advice for both checking and hints on how best to adjust the timing... and to proof-read them both... for what good is it to know you are off 4 or 5 degrees and then waste a ton of time trying to get it close to the like 24 Deg. "spec" BTDC. Also keep in mind that my 240D ran with noticeably more "spunk" and perceived power when it was off by 4 degrees [20 Deg BTDC]. When I readjusted mine to within 0.5 Deg of "Spec", I suffered noticeably less power, but ~10% MPG improvement, and an improved top-end speed!
Regards,

Interesting "trade off" from your getting the timing spot on


Yah, I figure my "poor-man's Woodruff key" and your "'spit-on-ya' IP timing check method would go hand in hand You didn't mention my favorite one, the "bubble method" Kinda like the "drip method" but less messy and more accurate (IMO) The thing is with the bubble method its handy to have a banjo fitting with hose and cut off hard fuel line with hose so you can hook everything up to the IP and get on with it.
Happy new year,

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1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"