It's sad to see some new technology comes along, trying to do the right thing, and right from the get-go, everyone on the forum stomps on it like a cockroach. I'm thinking, guys, c'mon. For a start, it's a good one.

Now, if you're an energy engineer guy, then I'll take your word for it if you say it's bad. But I'll tell you something else that's bad.... The Saudi's alone, not Africa, not Venezuela, etc., just the Saudi's, are pumping nearly 10 million barrels of oil ... PER DAY. Think about that for a second.... In just just one month, that's 300 million barrels. I mean, how much dead plankton is out there??? In one YEAR, that's 3 BILLION, 600 MILLION barrels of oil.

So, let's go out on a limb here. Let's say that one day, it'll become more scarce, and the price will go up, just a wild guess. Maybe the other guys are right, maybe we should do nothing at all.

What do you think?

jeff

I think the estimate is on an apples to apples cost comparison of one fuel to the other.

A few people said there's no infrastructure, so fuel cell (or any other technology) will ever catch on. What bunk! We could say back in 1898, that gas cars would never catch on because you couldn't get gas anywhere. Eventually, you could get gas in an area, then more cars came, then more fuel stations, etc. But do you really think fuel stations were all across America right from the start? Of course not. It all happened in phases.

I'm not an engineer, so maybe fuel cell isn't the answer, but oil can't be. It can't last forever, with world demand at about 110 million barrels per day. So then what ... IS .... the answer?

jeff

If someone could create a cheap reliable source of hydrogen, like all these scams on the interweb claim, than the fuel cell could march around the world.

Until than I recomend against investing in this technoligy.


Adding hydrogen fuel stations to existing gas station networks is simple, its a simple mechanical problem that the market forces could solve quickly.

__________________
1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

I read in another article that they expect to have the price below 100,000 in ten years. As of right now it's somewhere in the $250,000 range.

I feel that the free market will determine the answer. Oil will be replaced by something else. PR from Honda, or anybody else, is fine. However, the real answer will come from the masses when they determine what makes economic and practical sense to them. I get upset when a new technology is touted as "the next big thing" and hard questions are swept aside. The Average Joe will determine for himself if the horse & buggy, the bicycle, the airplane, the train, a Segway, or something else will makes sense for him to get from Point-A to Point-B.

In 1910, very few would have predicted that the automobile would have been so practical and a smash hit in the following twenty years. (It was a assumed that autos would be just be for rich boys to play with.) Demand had to be there and the other supporting infrastructures had to fall into place, like roads, fueling stations, and repair facilities. But the oil industry had excess byproduct from lamp oil which happened to make a low-cost, logistically-friendly fuel, highway departments were created, businesses and entreprenuers took care of the rest. It's neat the way the free market works.

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Nothing cranks me like compression ignition.

- '95 Mercedes E300D "The Great White"
- '98.5 Dodge Cummins 24V 4x4 - "The Green Hammer" (Sold 12-08)
- '81 VW Rabbit diesel w/GTI suspension - "The JackRabbit"
- '00 Triumph Sprint ST for when I need speed

OK, let's add some background. Fuel cells are great in applications where you need low airflow, low signature (noise and thermal), and relatively high power density in a relatively low weight package.

My efforts surround the area of taking diesel fuels and jet fuels into a useable product, to then integrate with a fuel cell to have a high-efficiency, low airflow means of producing power. Low airflow is a huge thing where architectures and space is dictated by ducting, and where distributed power production can be beneficial (like on ships, for example).

The problems with hydrogen production generally come from the thermodynamic inefficiencies f producing it. One can make hydrogen from hydrocarbons, and use them in systems FAR more efficient than IC engines. The problem? Once you want to store the product gas, there is a huge penalty for storage, leakage, etc. DOE made a no-go decision for on-board fuel processing, and so we don't have a convenient medium for transporting hydrogen. Reacting fuel and water to make excess hydrogen is great, and the systems can achieve +40% efficiency with minimal pollutants - better than an advanced diesel even! but without an easy to transport hydrogen medium, youre constrained by 10000 psi tanks that leak, and while hydrogen isnt as inherently unsafe as folks make it to sound, its still not something Id want leaking in my enclosed garage or loosing on a hot day after paying good money.

Fuel cells have not been truly characterized with respect to impurities and poisoning. Their installation as a low-temp PEM, operating at 80C means a LOT of radiator space. Their materials are $$$$ w.r.t. advanced IC engines, and PM isnt going down.

There are installations where their use makes sense... Particularly if you can run a diesel-fired SOFC APU, to drive operating efficiencies up. Without the ability to carry hydrogen, however, in a means that neither needs ridiculous storage and infrastructure, an entirely new chemical storage means that specialty chemical companies control, etc., we are at a hard starting point. Electrolyzers produce "free" hydrogen if solar cells are used to power them - but if we covered the whole US in solar, I doubt we'd be able to meet our electrical needs, let alone our hydrogen needs.

Then again, without investment in the technologies, nothing will come along. What makes sense to me in the interrim is that all homes should be run on NG, all electricity should be generated with nuke/wind/solar/hydro, and leave the efficient means of transporting hydrogen and energy (whether it is for IC engines of FC cars using fuel reformers) for the vehicles... Coal can be converted to hydrocarbons via an F-T process if CO2 isnt a concern, as an interrim process too.

My end thought??? The chevy volt is the future... if you have electricity, why waste it in a process as inefficient as electrolysis, just to store hydrogen? Batteries arent the most environmentally friendly things, but at least they can be processed. Use electricity to charge batteries, use fuel cells to top off batteries (FCs, BTW, have poor transient characteristics, especially if you care about life) in an APU type arrangement (5-10 kWe, running on liquid fuel), and then ONLY if you need real range and autonomy, do you use the IC engine... Then again, our electrical grid is crumbling, and likely wouldnt be able to support widespread operation in this way - for now. Plus, if the electricity comes from coal, youre not doing any different pollution-wise.

That's all my thoughts for now...

JMH

__________________
Current Diesels:
1981 240D (73K)
1982 300CD (169k)
1985 190D (169k)
1991 350SD (113k)
1991 350SD (206k)
1991 300D (228k)
1993 300SD (291k)
1993 300D 2.5T (338k)
1996 Dodge Ram CTD (442k)
1996 Dodge Ram CTD (265k)

Past Diesels:
1983 300D (228K)
1985 300D (233K)

Isn't the grid-to-wheel energy efficiency of a fuel cell system something like 22%? Isn't the well-to-wheel efficiency of a diesel somewhere around 25%? I guess I'm missing something as to where this is better.

Battery electric still delivers the best grid-to-wheel energy efficiency at 66%.

I have some numbers I can provide - I have to look them up.

Why not calculate well to wheels efficiency of electrical - based solutions too??? This way theyre on even playing ground with IC vehicles. Generating electricity isnt free.

grid to wheel efficiency of FC vehicles would include some sort of worst-case electrolyzer - not necessarily a fair comparisson, as it is a number of extra steps. Its all about how you draw your constraints.

JMH

__________________
Current Diesels:
1981 240D (73K)
1982 300CD (169k)
1985 190D (169k)
1991 350SD (113k)
1991 350SD (206k)
1991 300D (228k)
1993 300SD (291k)
1993 300D 2.5T (338k)
1996 Dodge Ram CTD (442k)
1996 Dodge Ram CTD (265k)

Past Diesels:
1983 300D (228K)
1985 300D (233K)

HEY! I can dream can't I?


If you were using purely solar(say, panels on the roof of your house/barn) to power the hydrogen separation; I'd say that it could fly for short range vehicle. Or you could just grow your own soybeans and make biodiesel......

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$60 OM617 Blank Exhaust Flanges
$110 OM606 Blank Exhaust Flanges
No merc at the moment

Here are some number from 2003.

http://www.efcf.com/reports/E04.pdf

Here's another.

http://www.metricmind.com/data/bevs_vs_fcvs.pdf

Personally, I'm not against new tech. I love new tech, but don't start throwing funding toward something that is the least efficient alternative. Assess the information available, and make a more informed decision. If your emotions drive you toward a FCV, then by all means, go that route.

But, I will wait this out. I want the most efficient which is why I am looking for a bicycle for the 32 miles to and from work. Hopefully I can hold out until more BEVs are available.

I'm not stomping this new technology, but make no mistake, this is not the most efficient technology.

.... and yes, I'm an engineer.

Ladies and gentleman I give you Iceland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Iceland

I watched a report on DW-TV a few months ago and they mentioned that if a lot of the testing thats going on there works out that the Icelandic government will back the construction of hydrogen producing plants that will be powered with geothermal energy. It might not be enough for the whole world, but at least its a start.

__________________
1982 300GD Carmine Red (DB3535) Cabriolet Parting Out
1990 300SEL Smoke Silver (Parting out)
1991 350SDL Blackberry Metallic (481)

"The thing is Bob, its not that I'm lazy...its that I just don't care."

Nuclear energy and biodiesel.

The way to go, my friends.

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99 E300 TD -- sold
01 540i 6 spd

I agree completely with the first but the second can't be produced in enough volume to be anything more than a supplement for the masses or an alternative for the few.