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  #1  
Old 01-11-2010, 07:16 PM
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Better glow plugs?

I just the other day ordered a set of vastly updated wellman glow plugs for the 6.2 and 6.5 general motors diesel. They appear to have either been already released or are about to release a glow plug for our older mercedes.

Besides being in the glow plug business for sixty years and introducing the sheathed glow plug about fifty years ago. They are giving a years warranty with the plugs.

They are a thermostatically controlled double spiral plug. That basically means they can be hotter until the thermostatic action jumps in and limits the high end temperature. Our old style glow plugs have to be limited very much in comparison to avoid burn out in my opinion. These american manufactured glow plugs should be considered and tried out by a few members.

They may really be of some value to our old indirect injection engines. Time and experience will tell of course but the technology looks better than what has been so far.

Look them up on the wellman site on the internet. This may be a sensible way to support american industry or what is left of it. Price is not a problem as I paid 62.00 for a set of eight. That was a little higher than average retail but their shipping was less as well. I have a feeling they might further reduce the start temperature in the winter. If even a little they are worth every cent in my opinion.

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Old 01-11-2010, 07:28 PM
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Wonder if the Wellman loop glow plugs are better than the average Bosch or Beru loop plugs?

Part # DRX00061

I would upgrade to the pencil plugs but I don't want to have to wire in a new relay, i want it to be stock. The W115 relay will not work with pencil plugs.
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1976 240D 190,000 miles
1979 300TD 220,000

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  #3  
Old 01-11-2010, 08:18 PM
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Better Glow Plugs ?

You want this:

http://www.beru.com/english/produkte/iss.php
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Old 01-11-2010, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 79Mercy View Post
Wonder if the Wellman loop glow plugs are better than the average Bosch or Beru loop plugs?

Part # DRX00061

I would upgrade to the pencil plugs but I don't want to have to wire in a new relay, i want it to be stock. The W115 relay will not work with pencil plugs.
Even if they did heat better they are wired the same when 1 Wellman GP fails the others would still stop working just like the stock ones do.

The other issues is unless you have an extra Glow Plug Relay if the stock Relay goes out; the replacements I have seen are expensive.
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  #5  
Old 01-11-2010, 09:55 PM
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I think the wellmans do something simular without the costly bells and whistles. That beru setup smells like real money. Actually I was more reffering to the pencil non series type wellmans.
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Old 01-11-2010, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
Even if they did heat better they are wired the same when 1 Wellman GP fails the others would still stop working just like the stock ones do.

The other issues is unless you have an extra Glow Plug Relay if the stock Relay goes out; the replacements I have seen are expensive.
Yeah I know they would still be wired in a series, im fine with that. I also have spares in the glove box.

I wonder if those Wellman units get hotter, or get hot faster?
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1985 300TD Turbo Euro-wagon
1979 280CE 225,200 miles
1985 300D Turbo 264,000 miles
1976 240D 190,000 miles
1979 300TD 220,000

GONE but not forgotten
1976 300D 195,300 miles
1983 300D Turbo 175,000 miles

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  #7  
Old 01-11-2010, 10:01 PM
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Unfortunately there is no adequate way to test the quality of Glow Plugs but to put them in your Engine and use them.

Being American made has not helped the Autolite Glow Plugs for Mercedes as far as quality is concerned.

It would be nice to have another choice.

One of the internets part sellers sells the Bosch Glow Plugs for less than $9 each. The last time I bought some they were made in France.
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  #8  
Old 01-12-2010, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
Even if they did heat better they are wired the same when 1 Wellman GP fails the others would still stop working just like the stock ones do.

The other issues is unless you have an extra Glow Plug Relay if the stock Relay goes out; the replacements I have seen are expensive.
The loop plugs ciRcuit is less effficient. The voltage drop across the squigly wires in the series string is an unusable loss of energy. That being said if you have loop plugs and they are functioning well and meeting your needs there is no real reason to change. When the need to change them does arrise is the time to install the pencil type.

Last edited by barry123400; 01-12-2010 at 08:34 PM.
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  #9  
Old 01-12-2010, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
Unfortunately there is no adequate way to test the quality of Glow Plugs but to put them in your Engine and use them.

Being American made has not helped the Autolite Glow Plugs for Mercedes as far as quality is concerned.

It would be nice to have another choice.

One of the internets part sellers sells the Bosch Glow Plugs for less than $9 each. The last time I bought some they were made in France.
Your comments are exactly on the mark. I have tried to get some background on the experiences of users of this slightly different approach. Initial indications are that they might be good. I see no evidence our favorite brands of plugs are copy catting yet either.

What I do understand is the ability of a wellman or beru setup to glow much hotter than any normal plug we currently use can. Then when the peak design temperature is arrived at they will self regulate it. You cannot do this with a normal plug as they would burn out probably the first time used. The element would have to have lower resistance.

So much current and heating would then occur they would just self destroy. Wellman appear to be using the second coil to increase resistance as it heats up in effect lowering or controlling the first elements ability to use excessive current. Those two coils are most likely in series. I also suspect the tip is made of a much tougher and higher temperature metal.

The individual self regulation possibly duplicates for all practical purposes the expensive beru set up. It does appear from what limited information from users on the 6.2 and 6.5 engines is the engines do fire off much easier.

As you say someone should try a set for durability. The rest of us can sit back and watch. I do not need a set of them myself for mercedes or I would. Anyone needing a set of glow plugs could start the ball rolling.

Autolight and champion do not appear to be labels they made as far as I can tell. Althought to stay honest I do not know who built those garbage plugs. If wellman did I would stay away from them.

These plugs are a possible upgrade for our older engines that are too important not to start checking out. I have little doubt they are not like champion or autolight concerning quality. There would be no one year warranty. Although collecting on warranty can be a real issue with a lot of things.

I read of one gentleman cold soaking his engine for a few days and starting it at -30F with these plugs. It was a 6.2 or 6.5 gm but even they will require the use of a block heater much less cold than this. He freely stated the engine sounded horrible at that start up temperature. The important thing is it did start. I still feel these plugs just might increase the serviceability of our cars in colder climates.

I will report my first impressions with the 6.5 when those wellmans arrive. He posted he has shipped priority mail yesterday.
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  #10  
Old 01-12-2010, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barry123400 View Post
Our old style glow plugs have to be limited very much in comparison to avoid burn out in my opinion.
no they don't. they can run all day long without blowing out.
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  #11  
Old 01-12-2010, 06:06 PM
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no they don't. they can run all day long without blowing out.
That in a nutshell is the difference and the problem. Because no regulation of the heat was incorporated in the design on our older glow plugs the manufacturers could not design for really fast or high output temperatures or failure would have been epidemic.

The wellmans on the otherhand turn on very strong and about twice as hot occurs. As that high temperature is approached the regulation coil component swings into action and eliminates them melting down. They too may last all day in that state.

As time has gone on there are other improvements in the tips as well. The concern is not if they are better. I think there is no sensible argument there.

The concern is what is their usable lifespan like in comparison to what we have today. I am going now to do a quick check with wellman to make sure the twin coil technology is being use in the mercedes glow plug type as well.

Email sent asking about a description of their mercedes 81-85 pencil glow plugs and earlier loop glow plug replacements. Will post what they respond.

I also asked if they ever built plugs for champion and autolite. I would lie in their responce if I had. So that answer it may not hold water. On the otherhand I suspect they would not have judging from their long list of oem users present and past.

Last edited by barry123400; 01-12-2010 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 01-13-2010, 04:28 PM
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Well they responded that the twin coil technology is also used in the pencil plugs that fit our car as well as the earlier open loop design. I really hope this whole area does not turn out to have been a total oversight on our part. I would not have found these glow plugs unless trying to find a better plug than the ac delcos for the 6.2 and 6.5s in my opinion.

I wonder if I could get them to mail me a set gratis for evaluation. It did not suprise me that they did not respond to the other question about the champion and autolight glow plugs.

Those glow plugs are so poor as to be not deserving an answer hopefully. Anyone on site know who built those latter two brands. I will ask on the champion and autolite sites on the internet and get back once again with whatever answer if any I get.
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Old 01-13-2010, 04:59 PM
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So they're loop plugs also use the "new wellman design"?
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1985 300TD Turbo Euro-wagon
1979 280CE 225,200 miles
1985 300D Turbo 264,000 miles
1976 240D 190,000 miles
1979 300TD 220,000

GONE but not forgotten
1976 300D 195,300 miles
1983 300D Turbo 175,000 miles

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  #14  
Old 01-13-2010, 05:48 PM
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Well the more I check the more information comes up. Beru had the patent rights to this twin coil regulating system under patent for many years. Other companies were aware of it but beru refused to licence the technology to others.

If they used it in our common beru glow plugs I think not. It almost looks like they may have just sat on the technology until the patent rights expired. It is a wonder mercedes tollerated it though unless they had a vested interest in the companies. They had to have known.

This I suspect as the bosh and beru glow plugs seemed from what I have heard are just about equal during that period. Also why increase internal costs if the end users are unaware?

Wellman glow plugs in the twin coil setup are available in our old series setup .9 volt plugs as well. Since you would have to replace them in a complete set I see no advantage at all in using them. You could not mix with bosh series glow plugs for example.

The twelve volt bosh conversion plugs because of the improvement in efficiency would probably cancel out any gain the series wellmans had. There is no way at present I can be sure though.

This is the 12volt pencil plug in a larger base to fit the older engines. This issue and availability is not clear at all when it comes to the older Wellman type plugs. Unfortunatly they reffered to them as the .9volt plugs without mentioning anything else. So wellman apparently does not manufacture the conversions unfortunatly.

Anyways this is somewhat premature until we get some valid tests and feedback coming back. Wellman states there product lasts longer in service but talk is cheap.

I was suprised by the actual amount of glow plug manufacturing firms existing once I checked. Also a lot of names I suspect the majority of site users like myself have not heard of.

I will now try to lever a test set of mercedes plugs out of wellman. They sell us mercedes owners on site none that I am aware of. Maybe just at a comprimise price..Let you know.

I very much doubt my viewpoint will change. If any glow plug can be proven to have a real advantage at the same price. Plus we can establish it is reliable in service most site members I believe would buy them. Saving your electrical system wear and tear. If able to start a colder engine than the current glow plugs we use will do it easily.

I had been starting to actually wonder why some indirect diesel engines where starting when our mercedes engines will not. Thought it was a lower compression issue. Now not as sure. We might be able to do better.

Time will tell. It is thirty years since our glow plugs where issued. I think ours are still the same from beru and bosh. Thirty years and same plugs? Glow plugs have evolved several times in that time frame for other manufacturers.

Last edited by barry123400; 01-13-2010 at 06:18 PM.
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  #15  
Old 01-13-2010, 06:49 PM
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If you want to run advanced plugs that provide pre/start/post heating you have to change the controller. The problem is that with the old controllers the new technology does you no good.

I'm not convinced that the Wellman is anything more than snake oil under the guise of bigger / better / faster / newer.

Bosch and Beru are likely to be the best that one can buy regardless of what others parade out in their defense. The limitations of the controller and the voltage that it passes on to the plugs is the biggest bottle neck and until you move to something like the ISS system from Beru you will have essentially the same old same old. It does no good to upgrade the plugs to ones that can handle pre / post heating if the controller doesn't support it.

My guess is that the ISS system, in order to heat quickly, has a voltage conversion component that sends current to the plugs in excess of 12V although I don't know that for certain, something on the order of the HID lamp technology type stuff.

my .02

steve a

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