Headgasket/Timing Chain/Front Gasket Triple feature! - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

djustin973 · #16 01-20-2010, 09:23 PM

I agree with inspecting the head, I just don't feel that seeing a "14" casting should have me running for another head before I've even begun the job.

Hit Man X · #17 01-20-2010, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djustin973

I agree with inspecting the head, I just don't feel that seeing a "14" casting should have me running for another head before I've even begun the job.

Heads are out there for low cost, if you look. I parted out an '86 SDL with a No 17 head I acquired for nearly nothing... trashed interior (BROWN!), suspension was dead, and oil pan cracked.

For the amount of time and funds you are going to spend, to me, it would be foolish not to upgrade to a later head. There is no better time and you did not purchase the car new... it could easily have been overheated in the past and the casting could be weak.

Brian Carlton · #18 01-20-2010, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djustin973

I think the head is perfectly reusable, the "14" heads may have a higher failure rate but as long as they are NEVER overheated I see no reason they are a ticking bomb.

In that case, good luck with your project.

djustin973 · #19 01-20-2010, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

In that case, good luck with your project.

Before you wash your hands of me as a lost cause

How did you get the 3K?

Brian Carlton · #20 01-20-2010, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djustin973

Before you wash your hands of me as a lost cause

How did you get the 3K?

Consider these estimates without diligent research on current prices:

Used cylinder head: $700.
Valves, prechambers, seats, guides, seals, springs: $1000. (including labor at Metric)
Chain, tensioning rail, upper guide rail, lower guide rail, tensioner:$350.
Gasket set for head and timing cover: $150.
Cylinder head bolts: $100.
Camshaft and crankshaft sprockets: $200.
Oil pump and chain: $400.
Misc.: $100.

You might cut corners and fail to replace items that desperately need it............because the cost just gets too great.

mplafleur · #21 01-21-2010, 12:07 AM

Here's a sample of some parts I got a couple of years ago:

Head_______________________qty_____each_______net
Valve stem seal kit____________1______$14.92_____$14.92
Valve guide - intake (1st os)____6______$4.37______$26.22
Valve guide - exhaust (1st os)__6______$6.78______$40.68
Exhaust valve (6)_____________6______$35.52_____$213.12
Intake valve (6)_______________6______$11.41_____$68.46
Cam sprocket_________________1______$40.71_____$40.71
Head gasket set_______________1______$69.55_____$69.55
Chain tensioner________________1______$48.51_____$48.51
Timing chain__________________1______$92.70_____$92.70
Chain guide __________________1______$47.85_____$47.85
Upper chain guide _____________1______$4.43 ______$4.43
Lower chain guide _____________1______$3.78______$3.78
Cylinder head bolts (13) 10x102_13______$2.65______$34.45
Cylinder head bolts (7) 10x115___7______$3.06______$21.42
Cylinder head bolts (6) 10x80____6 _____$2.54______$15.24
Sub-Total_____________________________________$705.38

It's not what I actually spent. I put this together to estimate the cost only.
My cam sprocket was fine and I didn't replace any valves or guides. The machine shop was able to reuse all of them and the guides hardly ever wear enough to need replacing.

jt20 · #22 01-21-2010, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mplafleur

Here's a sample of some parts I got a couple of years ago:

Head_______________________qty_____each_______net
Valve stem seal kit____________1______$14.92_____$14.92
Valve guide - intake (1st os)____6______$4.37______$26.22
Valve guide - exhaust (1st os)__6______$6.78______$40.68
Exhaust valve (6)_____________6______$35.52_____$213.12
Intake valve (6)_______________6______$11.41_____$68.46
Cam sprocket_________________1______$40.71_____$40.71
Head gasket set_______________1______$69.55_____$69.55
Chain tensioner________________1______$48.51_____$48.51
Timing chain__________________1______$92.70_____$92.70
Chain guide __________________1______$47.85_____$47.85
Upper chain guide _____________1______$4.43 ______$4.43
Lower chain guide _____________1______$3.78______$3.78
Cylinder head bolts (13) 10x102_13______$2.65______$34.45
Cylinder head bolts (7) 10x115___7______$3.06______$21.42
Cylinder head bolts (6) 10x80____6 _____$2.54______$15.24
Sub-Total_____________________________________$705.38

It's not what I actually spent. I put this together to estimate the cost only.
My cam sprocket was fine and I didn't replace any valves or guides. The machine shop was able to reuse all of them and the guides hardly ever wear enough to need replacing.

thats about what I spent on a 617 without having the head rebuilt.. and its a far cheaper/ simpler engine to work on.

sasquatchgeoff · #23 01-21-2010, 03:49 AM

I don't think anyone has even mentioned other stuff like a vacuum pump, belt/tensioner assembly, etc... It gets expensive.

Initially, I spent about $600 on parts, but ended up spending another 1K on "while you're in theres"

jt20 · #24 01-21-2010, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sasquatchgeoff

I don't think anyone has even mentioned other stuff like a vacuum pump, belt/tensioner assembly, etc... It gets expensive.

Initially, I spent about $600 on parts, but ended up spending another 1K on "while you're in theres"

Lets assume B.C. 's number is high... what do you think you could have squeaked by with.... as a budget?

...without being an OCD worrywart that, more or less, wants a new factory engine from Stuttgart?

mplafleur · #25 01-21-2010, 04:17 AM

Here's the totals for both the block and head. It was about $2100 to do the whole engine, I had hoped any way. I had to buy new connecting rods for an additional $600. Plus I got the wrong main bearing set and had to but another.

Block
Piston Set (87.50mm) $1,000.00
Piston sleeves $114.00
Rod bearing set $157.18
Connecting rod bolts (12) $32.40
Front crank seal $14.46
Main bearing set (1st os) $66.76
Thrust bearing shim kit $13.72
Lower gasket set $63.77
Oil pump $244.06
Oil pump chain $18.37
Oil pump chain rail $3.67
Rear crank seal $8.54
Sub-Total $1,736.93

Head
Valve stem seal kit $14.92
Head gasket set $69.55
Chain tensioner $48.51
Timing chain $92.70
Chain guide $47.85
Upper chain guide $4.43
Lower chain guide $3.78
Cylinder head bolts (13) 10x102 $34.45
Cylinder head bolts (7) 10x115 $21.42
Cylinder head bolts (6) 10x80 $15.24
Sub-Total $352.85

babymog · #26 01-21-2010, 08:44 AM

Really? Unless the 400k mile car is pristine, and it probably isn't with 400k, it's not worth the $3k plus to freshen the engine completely, plus other items (water pump, vacuum pump, alternator, transmission, mounts, flex-joints, radiator, ... you'll never run out of "while I'm in there" options). A 400k mile car in good shape is worth fixing, but it's tired and the first time it gets dented it's totalled regardless of the money put into the driveline.

Fix what's broken, the next thing to break will be the thing you didn't replace because you had to draw a line somewhere, regardless of what you've spent. I pretty much keep a spare 124 in my shop in pieces to keep Murphy's Law from presidiing over my cars.

Brian Carlton · #27 01-21-2010, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt20

Lets assume B.C. 's number is high... what do you think you could have squeaked by with.... as a budget?

...without being an OCD worrywart that, more or less, wants a new factory engine from Stuttgart?

You can squeak by with about $500. if the head is intact and you do nothing to the valves and the guides. But, this basically puts a worn engine back together as it was, and the capability and reliability of such an engine won't be present.

It's not about being an OCD worrywart...........it's about getting some value for all the labor that you invested. If you're labor is free and time is unlimited, and reliability is not an important criterion (all the exact opposite of my personal situation), then go with the cheap approach if the head is not cracked. However, the odds of that are slim to none.

babymog · #28 01-21-2010, 10:11 AM

It's a crap-shoot.

I've removed the head from two 250k mile 603s, one perfect, the other had no leaks but visible cracking on one cylinder.

The #14 casting was not strong enough to take the pressures and temperatures at the combustion chamber to water jacket wall. It's my belief that the cooling system maintenance is one factor, full-throttle events with the higher pressure and temperature is another.

Well maintained and driven lightly it might be fine. For those of us with a heavy foot, ... a #17 or later is the only cure.

sasquatchgeoff · #29 01-21-2010, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt20

Lets assume B.C. 's number is high... what do you think you could have squeaked by with.... as a budget?

...without being an OCD worrywart that, more or less, wants a new factory engine from Stuttgart?

Metric would have been just as good and easier (a lot more money for the head work) but I think the only stuff I had left over was a banana rail. I probably could have saved a little by greasing and re-using the tensioner pivot arm, but thats only about $60 total. Keep in mind I completely rebuilt the fuel system from delivery valves to injectors and the other direction to the hard lines. I haven't even done the math on those expenses.

Parts - $600
Head work - $600
Injector work - $400
Parts after the fact including fuel system - $600

sasquatchgeoff · #30 01-21-2010, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

You can squeak by with about $500. if the head is intact and you do nothing to the valves and the guides. But, this basically puts a worn engine back together as it was, and the capability and reliability of such an engine won't be present.

It's not about being an OCD worrywart...........it's about getting some value for all the labor that you invested. If you're labor is free and time is unlimited, and reliability is not an important criterion (all the exact opposite of my personal situation), then go with the cheap approach if the head is not cracked. However, the odds of that are slim to none.

I agree with you. My labor was free and I wanted the "life experience" (don't ask me where I came up with that one) Overall though, I got attached to the car and the body is straight, the suspension is passable, and the interior is good. The work has already paid for itself in reimbursed mileage from my job. I just had to exchange 5 months of misery for it. None of it would have happened on a #14 head though. I doubt that I would have done any of it on a heavier chassis, unless the rest of the car was dead mint (restoration project). The 201 is light and driveable, economical, and looks a lot better than a Toyota

. The math works for this car.