So as we escape the arctic and start to have weather that allows human survival I'm beginning to plan a very large project, I almost venture to call it a partial engine rebuild. Serenity has always had two major problems, she leaks oil, and she always has water in her oil. The oil leak is coming from around the front cover and I assume the oil in the water means headgasket. Since these are two jobs that need to be done together i plan on doing them at once, and since the front cover will be off, I figure it's a perfect time to replace the timing chain and rails. My basic plan is...

• Strap chain to cam sprocket
• Remove sprocket after aligning timing marks
• Remove head allowing cam sprocket and chain to pass through
• Remove front cover
• Replace Chain rails
• Reseal front cover
• Install head with new gasket
• Reattach cam sprocket
• Roll in new chain
• Take a drive!

Does anyone have any comments on my plan or forsee an pitfalls, am I downright mad? If you were doing this would you work on the engine in place or pull the engine, do the work, and reinstall. Obviously the work would be easier with the engine out, but that does mean getting an engine crane and then there's that whole pulling the engine thing...

Questions? Comments? Snide Remarks?

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Serenity-86' 300SDL 482,000 miles (on a "14" head!)

If you can afford the time, I would go through and pull the engine, but for other reasons. This give you the chance to inspect several items and replace them easily. In a situation like this, I would also check motor mounts, tranny mount, check condition of all oil cooler hoses,and AC; even, if I had the time, have the radiator boiled out by a pro while it's all out. This would mean, all things being equal that you probably wouldn't have to do any serious work on the car for maybe another 175,000 miles, which is pretty good.

When I get the chance, as long as I have the time and space, I use it to check out and replace such items as the exhaust manifold bolts, replacing them with stainless steel ones, and coat the threads with cupro-nickel high temp anti-sieze, so if I need to remove that stuff, nothing breaks. Stuff like that just makes life easier when you have to do a repair job and everything else is just going against you. My two cents.

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Strelnik
Invest in America: Buy a Congressman!

1950 170SD
1951 Citroen 11BN
1953 Citroen 11BNF limo
1953 220a project
1959 180D
1960 190D
1960 Borgward Isabella TS 2dr
1983 240D daily driver
1983 380SL
1990 350SDL daily driver alt
3 x Citroen DS21M, down from 5
3 x Citroen 2CV, down from 6

Plan for the worst case scenario that the cylinder head is cracked and damaged and will require replacement, because you could end up waiting weeks if not months to find a replacement if you’re not ready to send $2000 for a new replacement!

Engine must come out to do a proper job on the timing cover. While its out...well uhhh...you get the picture.

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327K on 1986 W201, 602.911, 722.414 2.5 190D ("The Red Baron")
139K on 1993 W124, 104.942, 722.433 2.8 300E ("Queen")

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4081/...0bb92d3c_m.jpg http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/o...g?t=1325284354

Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater.
- Albert Einstein

take a walk down memory lane...

I was hoping that would be everyone's response. Even with the extra work I was pretty sure the job could be done better with the engine out. Looks like I've got some fun ahead!

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Serenity-86' 300SDL 482,000 miles (on a "14" head!)

FSM method is pretty clear so a disc copy of the manual would be a must as well. Make sure you take the head to a machine shop for a pressure test. I got a 601 sitting on a stand in my garage right now...

Good luck,
geoff

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327K on 1986 W201, 602.911, 722.414 2.5 190D ("The Red Baron")
139K on 1993 W124, 104.942, 722.433 2.8 300E ("Queen")

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4081/...0bb92d3c_m.jpg http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/o...g?t=1325284354

Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater.
- Albert Einstein

take a walk down memory lane...

sounds like a lot of trouble if you ask me....

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Hi Geoff, can you direct me to where it shows how to remove the cylinder head in the FSM? I have the CD and couldn't find it anywhere. For that matter the closest I could find to replacing the timing chain was replacing the cam gear and checking the timing. In the Technical data paper manual they only have the torque specs instead of the procedure. Maybe they simply have less info on the 617? Sorry if its an odd question.

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TC
Current stable:
- 2004 Mazda RALLYWANKEL
- 2007 Saturn sky redline
- 2004 Explorer...under surgery.

Past: 135i, GTI, 300E, 300SD, 300SD, Stealth

You're looking at more than $3K worth of parts when you get into this deal............and a replacement head is almost a certainty.

Are you sure you want to spend that kind of money on an engine with 400K on the clock? For that money, you could find one with half the mileage and you wouldn't need to do any of the work............just the swap.

How long do you believe the lower end is going to last?

I'm Curious how you got that number? Why 3K, that seems extremely high. Also I think the head is perfectly reusable, the "14" heads may have a higher failure rate but as long as they are NEVER overheated I see no reason they are a ticking bomb. As far as the bottom end, there is no water in the oil, there is only a small amount of oil in the water. The headgasket is not in dire need of repair, I would drive on were it not for the oil leak from the front of the engine that will require a new headgasket to seal to the front cover.

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Serenity-86' 300SDL 482,000 miles (on a "14" head!)

Honestly 400k with a #14 (failing) head you're just looking for trouble. I'd try and find a junkyard engine and throw it in, probably going to be more cost effective in the long run. THe money on timing chain and all that could be put into refreshing a different engine with many less miles. If water has been getting into your oil you might have really jeopardized your lower end at this point as well.

P.S. I will be doing the exact same job on my 617 when I yank it out...seems like a big project but it is logical to replace all of that at the same time.

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TC
Current stable:
- 2004 Mazda RALLYWANKEL
- 2007 Saturn sky redline
- 2004 Explorer...under surgery.

Past: 135i, GTI, 300E, 300SD, 300SD, Stealth

before you buy any parts, open up the engine and measure some critical components like bore regularity and piston diameter. Inspect the head closely, as suggested.

at 400k you will need rings, but if you need pistons and sleeves.. that engine is not worth it.

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Here's the totals for both the block and head. It was about $2100 to do the whole engine, I had hoped any way. I had to buy new connecting rods for an additional $600. Plus I got the wrong main bearing set and had to but another.

Block
Piston Set (87.50mm) $1,000.00
Piston sleeves $114.00
Rod bearing set $157.18
Connecting rod bolts (12) $32.40
Front crank seal $14.46
Main bearing set (1st os) $66.76
Thrust bearing shim kit $13.72
Lower gasket set $63.77
Oil pump $244.06
Oil pump chain $18.37
Oil pump chain rail $3.67
Rear crank seal $8.54
Sub-Total $1,736.93

Head
Valve stem seal kit $14.92
Head gasket set $69.55
Chain tensioner $48.51
Timing chain $92.70
Chain guide $47.85
Upper chain guide $4.43
Lower chain guide $3.78
Cylinder head bolts (13) 10x102 $34.45
Cylinder head bolts (7) 10x115 $21.42
Cylinder head bolts (6) 10x80 $15.24
Sub-Total $352.85

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Michael LaFleur

'05 E320 CDI - 86,000 miles
'86 300SDL - 360,000 miles
'85 300SD - 150,000 miles (sold)
'89 190D - 120,000 miles (sold)
'85 300SD - 317,000 miles (sold)
'98 ML320 - 270,000 miles (sold)
'75 300D - 170,000 miles (sold)
'83 Harley Davidson FLTC (Broken again) :-(
'61 Plymouth Valiant - 60k mikes
2004 Papillon (Oliver)
2005 Tzitzu (Griffon)
2009 Welsh Corgi (Buba)

Really? Unless the 400k mile car is pristine, and it probably isn't with 400k, it's not worth the $3k plus to freshen the engine completely, plus other items (water pump, vacuum pump, alternator, transmission, mounts, flex-joints, radiator, ... you'll never run out of "while I'm in there" options). A 400k mile car in good shape is worth fixing, but it's tired and the first time it gets dented it's totalled regardless of the money put into the driveline.

Fix what's broken, the next thing to break will be the thing you didn't replace because you had to draw a line somewhere, regardless of what you've spent. I pretty much keep a spare 124 in my shop in pieces to keep Murphy's Law from presidiing over my cars.

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Gone to the dark side

- Jeff

It's a crap-shoot.

I've removed the head from two 250k mile 603s, one perfect, the other had no leaks but visible cracking on one cylinder.

The #14 casting was not strong enough to take the pressures and temperatures at the combustion chamber to water jacket wall. It's my belief that the cooling system maintenance is one factor, full-throttle events with the higher pressure and temperature is another.

Well maintained and driven lightly it might be fine. For those of us with a heavy foot, ... a #17 or later is the only cure.

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Gone to the dark side

- Jeff