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  #76  
Old 06-17-2010, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by barry123400 View Post
I thought annealing the copper washers sometimes restores them enough for reuse when difficult to source. Any opinions? This applies to hard to find ones that these are not. Even Volkswagen dealers probably stock these.
Annealing the aluminum washers is a bad idea.

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  #77  
Old 06-17-2010, 01:46 PM
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Forgot they were aluminium. Applies to only copper. Mr hunter is correct . Sorry.

Now I was wondering if copper seals could be substituted if you had them around in your toolbox. Is it a torque sealing issue with each type material? Or just an economy issue? Aluminmium is far cheaper to produce seals from.
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  #78  
Old 06-17-2010, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barry123400 View Post
I thought annealing the copper washers sometimes restores them enough for reuse when diifficult to source. Any opinions? This applies to hard to find ones that these are not. Even volkswagon dealers probably stock these.

Since you observed manipulating the relief valve spring and ball loosened it up it may have just been gunked up. Anyways there are many available from the salvage yards still that are the adjustable type. Flush and soak that valve with laquer thinner to remove any gunk.

Reading the thread on the relief valve is time consuming but worthwhile. It is an important part of the fuel supply system.

Also your injection pump could benifit perhaps by a good flushing if that much gunk was present in the relief valve. Of course at a later date after you get the engine running.

If my suspicions are correct a manual cleaning of the delivery valve seats might be in order as well as an injector check at some point if the car is worth it. There is no reason not to suspect the delivery valves especially might have experienced the gunking up as well to some extent if the relief valve was affected.

Depends on how the car runs or does not when the pressure is restored in the base of the injection pump. Thats again if it is certain the pressure was missing. You could have had some remaining pressure with a seriously gunked up delivery valves for example. The relief line could provide some restriction especially with a good quantity of fuel on board to enable this.

I was going to direct you towards the delivery valves in the injection pump if the test for the relief valve failed. No choice if only the number three element was producing output in my opinion. With low to non existant fuel supply pressure it should have been the number one element producing a little more likely than the number three.

That was bothering me and still is. The only hope by me was that your powers of observation or some variable might explain it. The delivery valves cleaning is managable by the individual at least if it comes to it.

I am about ready to start a thread on the importance of having clean proper sealing delivery valves. Plus many other posters inputs into what to expect in general if they are not clean and sealing well. There will be non sealing to various degrees to expect I think. We are fortunate that flow errosion does not seem to be a factor with the actual valves and seats. Or it has never been reported to my knowledge that is very limited of course.

We will have to develop a test where we input some air pressure into each injector line. Or a spare injector line installed in each individual injection pump element port one at a time so it is easily accessed to apply air pressure. With the crank rotation set at established points for each line.

That opens up the input port for the individual element under test. If the valve passes too much air or in fact any the delivery valve is not sealing properly. I suspect we wil have to work out some method like a fluid held in a loop between the air supply and the element as an indicator of any air flow. This should be cheap and accurate.

Kind of a leakdown test for delivery valves I think. Unless someone else has a better ideal. These cars are old and some people especially that burn other than diesel fuel should be aware of what is required.

There were just too many injection pumps being changed out that I suspected just had gunked up delivery valves. Most people assumed it was just totalled element bore problems instead. Again this applies primarily to wvo users.

It of course was possible but few if any ever checked the state of the delivery valves by test before changing the injection pump. Thats if anyone did to my knowledge.

My motavation is simple. As time goes on there will be fewer and fewer good used injection pumps around. We want to see them available for cases where the need is real as they are expensive otherwise.

Has anyone not wondered why a non producing injection pump sent to a pump shop does not come back with new elements usually? Or it is my belief right or wrong they do not. It takes so little time and equipment to do a delivery valve test if the need is indicated. Or it may be an intelligent to do this type of check when trying to get an old 123 running the best it can.

I am slowly trying over time to format a good tune up sequece or if you wish a methology to cheaply check out the few systems on these engines competently ourselves as time moves along. This is in my opinion the least I can contribute to a good site.

During the evalution process other members contribute ideals that lead to refinements and new areas to critically examine with time. Plus my original posted thrust long ago to remove the black box feelings of certain components in the system decreases by most of us part time self repairing types.
Excellent post. Yet another good reason to use the "bubble method", just go back to #1 when you want to set the timing
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  #79  
Old 06-17-2010, 03:46 PM
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Answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by barry123400 View Post
Forgot they were aluminum. Applies to only copper. Mr hunter is correct . Sorry.

Now I was wondering if copper seals could be substituted if you had them around in your toolbox. Is it a torque sealing issue with each type material? Or just an economy issue? Aluminum is far cheaper to produce seals from.
I will use copper seal rings for a few days in an emergency, but they get replaced ASAP.
The aluminum seal rings are cheap, MB engineering/durability selected them after many millions of dollars in testing.

FYI data to consider...

Long term storage of diesel
http://amsca.com/files/Download/Fuel_news_long_term_storage_diesel.pdf

http://www.lcbamarketing.com/long_term_fuel_storage.htm

Waste vegetable oil reacts with copper to form a "greenish slime".

Material compatibility
Free fatty acids in WVO can have a serious detrimental effect on metals.
Copper and its alloys, such as brass, are affected.
Zinc and zinc-plating (galvanization) are stripped by Free fatty acids in WVO.
Tin, lead, iron, and steel are also affected.

Stainless steel and aluminum are generally unaffected.
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  #80  
Old 06-17-2010, 05:09 PM
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YEAHH!! We plugged the return fuel line and it was VERY VERY hard to press the pump button this time!!!!!! So then we cranked the engine and ALL 5 INJECTORS SQUIRTED FUEL this time!!!!!

I am ordering the parts right now listed with the link above! Thank you very very much for a those of you who stuck around and kept throwing ideas to us!

We will keep you up to date when we get the parts!
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  #81  
Old 06-17-2010, 05:23 PM
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also my dad ended up unscrewing all the fuel lines including the hand pump area as he was planning on pulling the injector pump out.. Where can i get seals for the hand pump?
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  #82  
Old 06-17-2010, 05:43 PM
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That sealing washer is an odd size. I could go look in a box with a spare primer pump to see what material it is made of. I try to always have a spare around. Where it is at the moment is the question.

I believe the maximum possible fuel pressure it sees is only 30 or so pounds and that is only while testing with the return line clamped off and the other components in the system in good condition.

If copper heat it up pretty good and let it cool. Or take a chance on reusing it. If it will not seal you will know quick enough. Now if your old relief valve was just gunked up try it after cleaning with laquer thinner. Buying parts is costly and painful if not required. Certainly purchase one if needed. Just make sure it is needed first.

Your choice of course.
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  #83  
Old 06-17-2010, 05:49 PM
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I ordered the following parts.

(9) of the 007603012111
(3) of the 007603014405
(1) of the 0000747284

==========

So basically my spring valve currently doesn't hold any pressure. Its squeaking right now when you prime (since i cleaned it)... But you can prime 200 times and the button doesn't get hard. So i can't fire this thing up until i get the new parts. Now we play the waiting game
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  #84  
Old 06-17-2010, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightOwl View Post
I ordered the following parts.

(9) of the 007603012111
(3) of the 007603014405
(1) of the 0000747284

==========

So basically my spring valve currently doesn't hold any pressure. Its squeaking right now when you prime (since i cleaned it)... But you can prime 200 times and the button doesn't get hard. So i can't fire this thing up until i get the new parts. Now we play the waiting game
Its squeeking means it may now be working. The question is at what pressure does it open and does it seal properly when closed. The primer pump gets a little harder up to the point of the valve opening. Then the push pressure remains constant.

A lot of the time the presence of any air is modifying the feel of the primer pump until it is expelled. I do not think you had air to contend with or very little. So your push pressure just might be right with no air.

When you clamp off the return the output from the injection pump base is effectivly closed. You cannot pump fluid in a closed system. Fuel like all fluids does not compress. Kind of a general statement there but okay for our needs. The primer pump cannot basically be moved if everything is right. You call it very hard and it would be in that senario.

I would try starting the car now. It may suprise you. I think it will run. Or until your parts arrive why not read the relief valve spring thread started by Cervan. With a little luck you will get through it before your parts arrive.

Anyways I think and hope your problem is now resolved. I would post how this engine runs sometime. Your experience to me indicates it may be a candidate for further improvement with no or very little money required to achive it. A lot of these cars have experienced neglectful maintence if any over the years.

Last edited by barry123400; 06-17-2010 at 06:33 PM.
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  #85  
Old 06-17-2010, 08:11 PM
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Great

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightOwl View Post
YEAHH!! We plugged the return fuel line and it was VERY VERY hard to press the pump button this time!!!!!! So then we cranked the engine and ALL 5 INJECTORS SQUIRTED FUEL this time!!!!!

I am ordering the parts right now listed with the link above! Thank you very very much for a those of you who stuck around and kept throwing ideas to us!

We will keep you up to date when we get the parts!
Happy to hear it's ALIVE.

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