It looks to me like the positives outweigh the negatives so something certainly was accomplished!

Just a little more tweaking and i'm sure you'll get it!

__________________
1982 300GD Carmine Red (DB3535) Cabriolet Parting Out
1990 300SEL Smoke Silver (Parting out)
1991 350SDL Blackberry Metallic (481)

"The thing is Bob, its not that I'm lazy...its that I just don't care."

I would highly suspect the alignment as the cause if it wasn't done at the dealership. Ask if they used a spreader bar when setting the toe. If not, or if they tell you a story about how they don't need it, or can compensate for it... go to the dealer for another alignment. If that fixes it, I'd ask for a refund at the original shop. You'd be amazed at how much a slight error in toe can affect handling, exactly as you described.

BTW - the pressures you mention should not affect handling, but it wouldn't hurt to drop to ~32 all around (or, to MB specs listed in the fuel door). Tires can cause problems though even if they appear to be worn evenly. Only way to verify this is to swap on a different set of wheels/tires from another car which tracks normally.

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Quick, not-very-exciting update: Bodhi is still with my mechanic. I left it with him over the weekend so he could drive it a bit, look it over and give me his opinion. When I called this morning I talked to one of his assistants and he relayed that my mechanic had not found anything wrong, but he did think it wandered a little. He said he wants to keep it for another day to try something. So, I'm glad he didn't find anything terribly wrong, but on the other hand frustrated not to have an answer.
Of course if I know nothing major is wrong, I can proceed with tweaking when I get it back. I'll be interested to hear all my mechanic's thoughts though.

__________________
1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)

Fairly positive update: I got the car back from my mechanic today after he drove it and studied it quite a bit. His take was this: He does not think there's anything wrong with the way it drives, but understands that a car's regular driver can be bothered by subtle differences that someone else isn't going to detect. And he says it is most likely my new tires. He pointed out that my BF Goodrich's are very flat-surfaced tires and that's probably why I feel like the car is less steady on the highway than it once was (actually the last tires weren't great either, but there was so much wrong with the suspension then I wouldn't have noticed). He didn't think they're a bad tire, but that he wouldn't recommend them on the w124 for the best handling. Like I said, the wandering/unsteadiness is pretty subtle, but seeing as I've driven this car so much (and to be honest also because I was so paranoid after this project), it was noticeable to me. He did check the alignment (even though he thinks it does not drive like a misaligned car), as well as inspect my handiwork. On a positive note, he was extremely complimentary about the quality of my subframe job ... he said when he had it up on the lift he was showing it to everyone and pointed out to them all that work was done by a girl. He did also point out that the car accelerates beautifully straight and cornered well on the back roads, both of which I agree with, and those are good signs.
Anyhow, when the snow (again, really?!) goes away I'll drive it for a while with a fresh mind-set (i.e., not terrified that I put something in backwards or forgot a part) and see how it feels. Unfortunately I can't really undo the tire decision ... they're not so terrible that I can justify another $400-600 to replace them. I think next time I need new tires I'll do my research and spend more to maximize my ride.
So, to sum up, I'm guessing some of it was in my head and some of it is in my tires. But I can always tinker more.

__________________
1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)

Further proof that you really nailed this project. Very impressive work C!!!!!
Now for Chase..........

__________________
Jimmy L.
'05 Acura TL 6MT
2001 ML430 My Spare

Gone:
'95 E300 188K "Batmobile" Texas Unfriendly Black
'85 300TD 235K "The Wagon" Texas Friendly White
'80 240D 154K "China" Scar engine installed
'81 300TD 240K "Smash"
'80 240D 230K "The Squash"
'81 240D 293K"Scar" Rear ended harder than Elton John

Michelin MXV4s

__________________
1982 300GD Carmine Red (DB3535) Cabriolet Parting Out
1990 300SEL Smoke Silver (Parting out)
1991 350SDL Blackberry Metallic (481)

"The thing is Bob, its not that I'm lazy...its that I just don't care."

'Scuse my French, but I call "bullpucky" on that. Brand new tires causing the problem? I seriously doubt it. At the risk of repeating myself, I would strongly recommending having the car aligned at a MERCEDES DEALERSHIP, nowhere else. Request the before & after printout which will look like this - you want "all green" for the "after" section.



I'll bet it's neither, and that there is something fishy with the alignment; specifically front or rear toe (or both). $100 for a dealer alignment is way cheaper than ~$500 for new tires that you most likely don't need. The black 300D that I sold recently also didn't feel right, it "wandered" slightly at speed (hard to describe). I had to constantly make small corrections at the steering wheel, and it was worse in windy weather. The dealer alignment cured the problem, but what was interesting was how little the car was out of spec... it was a tiny amount of toe, IIRC. I'll see if I can scan that printout and upload it so you can see for yourself.

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He wasn't saying that they were causing a problem, but that they were causing the car to have a different "feel," which I was noticing. It's certainly possible he just missed something, but it's not like he was trying to sell me new tires or con me into something (he didn't charge me for anything) ... I'm just clarifying I don't think he was trying to BS me. That said, if you guys think I should doublecheck, I should probably doublecheck. Maybe this is a dumb question, but if it goes to the dealer and the alignment is already correct, do they still charge you the full price? I.e., can they just check it?
And yes, it'd be great if you guys could take a look or a drive. I kind of feel conflicted because obviously I respect everyone's expertise here (I wouldn't have finished the project without it, and I know you guys have a heck of a lot more experience than I do), but I also respect my mechanic's expertise (he's been at this for some 40 years, and played a large role in the fact that this car is still on the road), and no matter what I do I feel like I'll be disrespecting someone's advice. It would be an easier choice if the car felt horrid, but it just feels ... different. And I know I'm losing a little in translation as I try to describe it.
I guess it would be best to just take it to the dealer as recommended. Hopefully they won't wonder why I didn't follow their last bit of advice about my car:


babymog, the steering play has never been adjusted AFAIK, though I can thumb through the records to check. That may be a good idea too. Will search for the procedure tonight.

To share a positive thought, I can't get over how quiet and smooth the car is on shifts and when accelerating ... I still instinctively brace for the thunks and clunks and they don't happen. And I'm sure it's partially because I've been driving the 240D instead the past few months, but the 300D is such a missile when I want to pass people on the highway.

__________________
1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)

I've run my 124s on many tires since I bought most of them used. The original tires IIRC on my '91 were Michelins, I've also had Continentals (OE on the early 124s), Goodyear, and some Chinese junk (all replaced with Michelins).

Where I will strongly agree that good tires will make the car handle and ride better, none of these tires caused my cars to wander. If all is tight and right in the suspension, I'd love to inspect it visually, as mentioned in one of my earlier postings on the subject, and suggest changes as necessary. The alignment printout is useful, but if the spreader bar isn't used, ... the printout is not accurate.

Are the tires and wheels the correct size & offset? This also can cause wandering as the steering offset is affected, ride height will also affect alignment.

If the steering box hasn't been touched, it might be worth the effort to adjust any play out of it also.

Once the snow is gone and our cars can go out and play again, we need a midwest get-together.

__________________

Gone to the dark side

- Jeff

You could always chat with the dealer service advisor and see if they'll give you a price break if everything checks out perfect, but I doubt it, unless they're really super nice. A good portion of the alignment time is getting the car on the rack and all the wheel sensors attached. If it all checks out, your longtime mechanic is exhonerated. If not, you (hopefully) solved the problem.

Steering box - I've yet to find a 124 steering box that had enough play to require adjustment. That was SOP (standard operating procedure) with the older steering boxes (123, probably 126/107 also) but the 124/129/201 boxes are almost always nice & tight. The usual 124 problem is leaking! If the steering shock is not recent, btw, check that out... unbolt one end and try to push it in & out by hand. It should take significant muscle to move it in & out with no "play" before there is resistance. If you can push it around like a slide whistle, worse yet with only one hand, it's probably toast. Don't expect magic results with a new steering shock but it's worth looking into.

See attached PDF of my alignment on the black '87 300D. Note that the only things out of spec were front steer ahead (very slightly out) and rear total toe (moderately out). Everything else was ok. And that little bit was enough for even my wife to notice while driving the car. This is why I say that the alignment is so critical... I don't know if the indy alignment guys even check things like steer ahead or rear total toe. (?)

Attached Files

87_300D_Black_alignment.pdf (351.5 KB, 187 views)

Well, I went in and talked to a service adviser at the local MB dealership today and I'm not really sure what to make of it. He was very nice, even though I think he thought I was a moron, I didn't do a very good job of explaining my situation. He said they would be glad to do an alignment, but that he doubted that was the issue and that he would recommend experimenting with the tires before spending money on a second alignment (i.e., try rotating them and see if it does anything different, spin each and check for defects, etc.). I showed him a printout of your 124, gxsr, and asked him about the total toe and steer ahead, but he didn't think that was likely the problem, and that the independent shop probably would have noticed those issues (he did know of the shop and said he thought they were very good, the second-best option for a MB alignment, with the dealer being first). Of course, all he had to go by was my description of what the car does. To be honest I have a hard time imaging the tracking would be that affected by the tires, even though now both my indy and this dealer adviser have said that. Or at least, I'm not confident enough to go out and buy $600 worth of tires to replace brand new tires. The alignment is only $90 if I decide to do that first instead.
He did reiterate what my indy and others have said in that he doubted it was my work that caused the problem ... if the new frame were bent or something installed wrong, it would have been very obvious during the first alignment. He also asked about wheel bearings, front suspension, steering linkage and so forth, which was nice, he took his time to help me think of other things to check first.
So ... for the heck of it I'm going to switch tires front to rear, and I'll check each for inconsistencies or uneven running. Other than that I'll think about it ($90 isn't very much ...). It's very drivable. It's amazingly comfortable and smooth and sometimes I think "wow, I'm nuts, this car tracks perfectly" ... but if it's windy/breezing or I'm on a truck rut ... then the flakiness starts again.

__________________
1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)

Definitely a good idea - wouldn't hurt. What brand / size tires did you buy, btw? I forget.



Ah yes, but did the indy shop printout show those specs? If not - I'm suspicious. If so, and if they were in spec, I'd still want to know if the spreader bar was used. If not - their printout is invalid.



With used tires, definitely. With new tires, very unlikely, but possible. I've had used tires cause problems before, but never new ones. (I usually just have balance / wobble issues with new tires, lol!)



I would absolutely NOT buy another set of new tires unless there was concrete proof they were at fault. Only way to prove this is ot swap on a different set of wheels/tires from a "known good" donor car and drive a day or two on 'em.



I'm nearly certain that your work has nothing to do with the problem.



Definitely wouldn't hurt to double-check that stuff. I think I already mentione the steering shock before. (?) But I've driven cars with dead steering shocks that didn't wander, and didn't behave vastly different when a new one was installed.



Excellent idea, and free!



Those were the exact symptoms on the car you have the printout of. And that car had tires which were worn (evenly) to the wear bars. Even with the shot tires, the problem vanished after the alignment.

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They are BF Goodrich Advantage, but I'll have to doublecheck the size.

I did not think to ask, but I bet they would ... I might go back and ask if they can still print it, although I'm trying to think of a way to do that without sounding accusatory.

That's what I was thinking ... unless there's some sort of defect I haven't noticed. I'll see what happens when I rotate them, and if I suspect it's making the difference, maybe I can find someone to borrow wheels and tires from.

Thanks! When I really think about it, I'm pretty confident that everything was done right, but the occasional paranoid "what if" sneaks up on me now and then.

I forgot to replay earlier about the steering shock, but I did replace that about a year and a half ago. Wouldn't be too hard to check it, though. I did check the wheel bearings a couple nights ago and don't feel any play, and did a visual inspection of linkage, ball joints, control arm bushings and all look healthy. Would front swaybar bushings make a difference in wandering? They look pretty good, but that's the one part of the suspension I don't have a record of being replaced, so it popped into my mind.

__________________
1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)

Cool, BFG's are decent, I wouldn't expect any weirdness from them. Size should be irrelevant (for this issue) but hopefully they're stock 195/65 or maybe 205/60, assuming you have stock wheels.



Easy: Tell them you keep detailed records on the car, and forgot to ask them for the printout when you had it aligned. You just want to add it to your files for future reference.



I'd be shocked if you cured the problem and the root cause turned out to be something you did on the subframe rebuild. It's up there with winning the lottery or getting hit by lightning.



Did you set wheel bearing end play with a dial indicator? The MB spec is stupidy tight (0.01-0.02 mm) and a bit of a nuisance to check / adjust. Just curious, how old (or how many miles, approx) are on the front steering pieces (tie rod, drag link, idler arm)?



Swaybar bushings causing wandering is up there with the lottery/lightning thing. Those will cause squeaks, or maybe a tad more body roll, but that's it.

... rear swaybar or front?
the rear swaybar bushings really hold the suspension in line...
front does very little to keep the car straight.

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John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 560SL convertible
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
2005 Dodge Sprinter 2500 158"WB
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!