Timing adjustment methods - Page 5 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

leathermang · #61 01-20-2011, 09:57 PM

I would sure cushion those jaws with some wood or something...just to be safe.. you have a lot of torque with those handles...

Diesel911 · #62 01-21-2011, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

I would sure cushion those jaws with some wood or something...just to be safe.. you have a lot of torque with those handles...

All of the IP's mounting Nuts and Bolt were loose enough so that the IP would turn with a little resistance. I just sort of tapped with my right hand nudge it.
If the IP was still bolted tight enough for me to damage it with the Channel Locks then it would have been to tight for me to move it just a tiny bit.
The fun part is the IP has to come off some time this year as the Block to IP gasket has leaked some ever since I bought the car.

Will change that long with the Oil Filter Housing gasket that is also leaking.

RichC · #63 01-21-2011, 05:27 AM

Here is my method.

Get the thing timed close enough to start by any method. Timing light, drip tube, etc..

Do all the other maintenance steps I know of, ie banjo bolt cleaning, fuel pressure spring adjustment, valve adjustment, etc...

Connect all glow plugs to one wire. I have a little adapter that plugs into the plug that connects to the glow plug relay.

connect the one wire to the positive side of a volt meter, the negative to a ground, usually under the wing nut of the power steering pump.

move the pump by whatever method until I get the highest voltage reading on the voltmeter.

This compensates for differing glow plugs, and chain stretch, engine wear, etc..

The glow plug is a very precise thermocouple and will always give the highest voltage when given the most heat inside the cylinder.

Unless you can break the laws of physics this method will give you the most efficient burn in each cylinder, equating in the best overall injection timing.

layback40 · #64 01-21-2011, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

Here is my method.

Get the thing timed close enough to start by any method. Timing light, drip tube, etc..

Do all the other maintenance steps I know of, ie banjo bolt cleaning, fuel pressure spring adjustment, valve adjustment, etc...

Connect all glow plugs to one wire. I have a little adapter that plugs into the plug that connects to the glow plug relay.

connect the one wire to the positive side of a volt meter, the negative to a ground, usually under the wing nut of the power steering pump.

move the pump by whatever method until I get the highest voltage reading on the voltmeter.

This compensates for differing glow plugs, and chain stretch, engine wear, etc..

The glow plug is a very precise thermocouple and will always give the highest voltage when given the most heat inside the cylinder.

Unless you can break the laws of physics this method will give you the most efficient burn in each cylinder, equating in the best overall injection timing.

Rich,
I notice that you dont have any information about yourself in your signature.
The method you have stated does not sit well at all with compression ignition combustion. GP's are not thermocouples in any stretch of the imagination. The older style wire ones are basic ohms law type resistors, the pencil type are filled with carbon pitch & again are not thermocouples.
It is designed into the IP timing to allow for IDI. Do you have any references for your recomendations?
I would suggest reading some basic text on combustion theory, in particular the otto cycle.

RichC · #65 01-21-2011, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by layback40

Rich,
I notice that you dont have any information about yourself in your signature.
The method you have stated does not sit well at all with compression ignition combustion. GP's are not thermocouples in any stretch of the imagination. The older style wire ones are basic ohms law type resistors, the pencil type are filled with carbon pitch & again are not thermocouples.
It is designed into the IP timing to allow for IDI. Do you have any references for your recomendations?
I would suggest reading some basic text on combustion theory, in particular the otto cycle.

I really dont care what you think.

While your trolling me why dont you explain yourself.

What is a thermocouple ?

What makes it a thermocouple ?

Why is any bi-metal alloy a thermocouple ?

Is it possible to get higher voltages out of a thermocouple with lower amounts of heat ?

I have plenty of references, do you want a lits of all the cars I have timed ???

Can you explain to the class what you think an otto cycle is. and how it is tuned for highest performance ?

Is the otto cycle a thermodynamic process ?

layback40 · #66 01-21-2011, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

I really dont care what you think.

While your trolling me why dont you explain yourself.

What is a thermocouple ?

What makes it a thermocouple ?

Why is any bi-metal alloy a thermocouple ?

Is it possible to get higher voltages out of a thermocouple with lower amounts of heat ?

I have plenty of references, do you want a lits of all the cars I have timed ???

Can you explain to the class what you think an otto cycle is. and how it is tuned for highest performance ?

Is the otto cycle a thermodynamic process ?

What I am saying is that no credible reference supports your "theory' of how to time injectors.
I dont believe that you have presented any credible knowledge on such matters.
The rantings in your reply just confirm this.

Best that no one takes your method seriously until there is some credible information provided to support it.

Diesel discussion does not need technically incorrect rubbish posted as being suitable methodology.

Next some one will be suggesting placing the car in an open field on a night with a full moon & requesting spiritual guidance for injector timing, maybe hanging crystals from the MB emblem ?
Is there some hint in some old rock song?

ForcedInduction · #67 01-21-2011, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

while your trolling me why dont you explain yourself.

He isn't trolling, and he did explain himself clearly. You're willingly ignoring his post and making your own assumptions on what was said.

Quote:

What is a thermocouple ?

What makes it a thermocouple ?

Why is any bi-metal alloy a thermocouple ?

None of those match the description of a glowplug. A glowplug is a heating element, not a sensor. It is not manufactured with the specs or tolerances of a sensor. Just because glowplug 1 and glowplug 2 produce different voltage doesn't mean combustion is different, one may have 0.01g more carbon packing or 0.05hom more resistance than the other which would majorly skew accuracy.

Quote:

I have plenty of references, do you want a lits of all the cars I have timed ???

Those are not references. We need references to documents demonstrating the validity of your method, not examples of where the method has been used.
At this point in time, adjusting timing based on the "sound" of the engine has more credibility than your method.

RichC · #68 01-21-2011, 10:59 AM

How many of these cars have you guys ever timed ?
Be honest !

Now go use the search function and look up milli volt method.

Here is a link for you to read.

Setting pump primary timing by milli volt method.

RichC · #69 01-21-2011, 11:01 AM

Someone close the door the trolls are getting back in. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RichC · #70 01-21-2011, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

He isn't trolling, and he did explain himself clearly. You're willingly ignoring his post and making your own assumptions on what was said.
None of those match the description of a glowplug. A glowplug is a heating element, not a sensor. It is not manufactured with the specs or tolerances of a sensor. Just because glowplug 1 and glowplug 2 produce different voltage doesn't mean combustion is different, one may have 0.01g more carbon packing or 0.05hom more resistance than the other which would majorly skew accuracy.
Those are not references. We need references to documents demonstrating the validity of your method, not examples of where the method has been used.
At this point in time, adjusting timing based on the "sound" of the engine has more credibility than your method.

A glowplug is a very good sensor, and resistor, and thermocouple.
Probably better than the sensor used for coolant temperatures.
Heck the best sensor in the car is probably the block heater.

The differences between the individual glowplugs are not an issue.
When all glowplugs are connected together they will give an aggregate voltage of all the plugs.

The aggregate highest voltage will correlate with the highest aggregate temperatures in all cylinders.

And unless you can explain how you could possibly get a higher voltage from a glowplug by giving it lower tempratures you have no argument against this method.

ie, you must break the laws of physics to disprove this method.

Prove me wrong !!!
Quit giving lip service and prove me wrong !!!

RichC · #71 01-21-2011, 11:18 AM

Prove me wrong !!!!

funola · #72 01-21-2011, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

I cannot remember if it was one of our members or on another Forum but someone made a tool to rotate the IP that clamped on to the fromt Squarish portion of the Fuel Injection pump.

When I did mine I removed the Fuel injection Hard Lines and I used my largest Channel Locks over the Delivery Valve area gripping the IP housing. With the Handle Pointing towards the Engine.
I gripped the Handles with the Left Hand and hit the Handle with the right had to bump it along a little a time.
It worked out well. The handles are long and there was a lot of leverage so it only took little bumps to move it along.

Interesting ideal with the channel locks. How about a bottle jack between the IP and the fender? Not sure if there's a clear shot of the IP.

funola · #73 01-21-2011, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

The differences between the individual glowplugs are not an issue.
When all glowplugs are connected together they will give an aggregate voltage of all the plugs.

The aggregate highest voltage will correlate with the highest aggregate temperatures in all cylinders.

Actually, with 5 glow plugs connected in parallel, you will read the glow plug with the highest voltage. There is no addition, subtraction or aggregate (average?) of voltages. Which cylinder is the hottest (highest voltage)? You will not be able to find out easily. Still, I think your method has some merit.

Edit: In case anyone wants to know if this is credible information or not, I have a degree in electrical engineering.

It's a long time ago since EE 101, but I still remember- look up Kirchoffs voltage law.

RichC · #74 01-21-2011, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funola

Actually, with 5 glow plugs connected in parallel, you will read the glow plug with the highest voltage. There is no addition, subtraction or aggregate (average?) of voltages. Which cylinder is the hottest (highest voltage)? You will not be able to find out easily. Still, I think your method has some merit.

Edit: In case anyone wants to know if this is credible information or not, I have a degree in electrical engineering.

It's a long time ago since EE 101, but I still remember- look up Kirchoffs voltage law.

This kind of response deserves some real world experiments.

Volts would be the same, but amperage should change.

I will check it out, and get back with you.

leathermang · #75 01-21-2011, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by layback40

Next some one will be suggesting placing the car in an open field on a night with a full moon & requesting spiritual guidance for injector timing, maybe hanging crystals from the MB emblem ?
Is there some hint in some old rock song?

I am sure you are going to be surprised that that IS in the Factory Shop Manual... the 1982 version page 32 ,4th paragraph... subtitled ' age of Aquarius'.