Top 3-5 cost efficient ways to decrease body roll? - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

winmutt · #31 01-12-2011, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

That's OK, my wife won't let me drive "her car" anyway.

I guess you must be dead then. The rest of us with wives still like it when chicks come up to us and tell us how cool our cars are.

#32 01-12-2011, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winmutt

I guess you must be dead then. The rest of us with wives still like it when chicks come up to us and tell us how cool our cars are.

She doesn't care about that, she just doesn't want me to mess up her car.

SD Blue · #33 01-12-2011, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

Silly question; do you really want to try to redesign the suspension on a W123 to turn it into something else?

It's a 25 year old, 4000 pound, midsize sedan that wasn't designed as a "sports sedan." I have HD shocks on mine with stock suspension, and they handle as intended (with a fair amount of body roll). These are not sports cars and they never will be; if this CD really has 14k original miles, don't screw it up with modifications that the next owner will have to remove.

My thinking is along the same lines....... Either there is a worn suspension component, such as idler arm bushings, etc... or rear control arm bushings, or unrealistic expectations.

With a car this heavy, major suspension mods are likely to result in a vehicle riding as rough as an empty 5 ton truck and still unresolved "body roll" if there is a worn suspension component.

MBeige · #34 01-12-2011, 04:20 PM

How much body roll is too much? Expectations have to be realistic as mentioned.

Search YouTube for the W123 Faszination videos showing the W123's doing slalom runs at high speed.

The C123's dimensions, for reference:

leathermang · #35 01-12-2011, 05:23 PM

Ok guys .... you may have been a little hard on the guy with some of those opinions..
Has anyone read the Factory Shop Manual concerning cars ( and I do not remember the quaint nomenclature it used ) ' built for severe operations.. like countries with bad roads...
that stuff may just bolt in...
however , I would be interested in Winmutt telling us how many hours HE thinks changing out the front anti sway bars takes....

MTUpower · #36 01-12-2011, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winmutt

No way is it a 20hr job. It is a 2 man job tho!.

I disagree with everyone else this is my order.
1. Sway bars/bushings. TD sway bar in front as mentioned, the 15mm HD rear is NLA afaik, but there is a guy who made his own by cutting and welding. You can have them custom made for ~300. The 126 bar is 2cm to wide but comes in a 19mm variety.
2. Springs, there is a pair of vogtlands for sale now, otherwise you can purchase OEM TD fronts and progressive rate rears
3. Shocks, Bilstein HD
4. Weight, A good reason to switch from auto to manuals

The service manual says it's close to 18 hours. I certainly think it can be done in less.

Renntag · #37 01-12-2011, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by English Bulldog

Top 3-5 efficient ways to decrease body roll?
1. $
2. $
3. $
4. $
5. $

1. stiffer sway bars.
2. lowering springs
3. More aggressive Dampers
4. Smooth driving.
5. Drive more slowly. (whats the fun in that?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech

... you'd have to consult a road racer... too stiff a rear bar can affect handling badly... it's gotta be balanced, ...

I just happen to be licensed road racer and agree with VStech. A certain amount of body roll is good. weight transfer is needed, and supple suspension makes a car more forgiving. A stiffer rear bar will reduce weight transfer and lends itself to understeer.

I would like to improve the handling performance of one or more of our Mercedes but am very concerned to not radically change the character of the car. I am not a purist by any means, but I spend a fair amount of time modifying race cars and then getting them to work in a variety of scenarios. Once modified, some cars seem 'moody' as mods make them happy in one scenario but miserable in another.

Once I drive a W123,124,126, 210 with lowering springs, and dampers, I will have a better opinion. For now, I am able to drive each of our Mercedes at ridiculous speeds on racetracks, and outside the limits of our laws on the street (when safe). This being the case, I dont place a high priority on making such mods.

note to anyone considering making changes, adding components that dont compliment each other will make for an ill handling machine. Choose wisely, and be prepared to make changes again.

t walgamuth · #38 01-12-2011, 10:31 PM

Fitting a stiffer rear bar will promote oversteer.

A mercedes is designed to be very very neutral with a touch of understeer because understeer is safer than oversteer on the highway (or race track).

To improve handling I recommend:
1. make sure the suspension is in good condition.
2. Add hd bilsteins or Koni shocks.
3. Excellent tires

For most folks I would recommend stopping at this point.

If you still have a bug you can cut some spring off. this is inexpensive and will lower the car and make the springs stiffer.

Heavier sway bars front and rear would be the next most cost effective solution in most cars but none are avalable for the 123 chassis so your best solution is having bars bent or swapping in wagon bars front and rear.

Lowering springs are another way to help some but are virtually unobtainable.

For the cost of modifying your 123 to really handle significantly better you can by a ten year old Miata and drive that when you want to carve up corners. Come to think of it I have a 99 Miata I will sell you or my old 280e euro autocrosser which had h and r lowering springs on it and hd bilsteins in front and Koni adjustables in back.

Really for street driving it is hard to beat a stock benz with all the components up to snuff with stock sized tires.

leathermang · #39 01-12-2011, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

If you still have a bug you can cut some spring off. this is inexpensive and will lower the car and make the springs stiffer.
Really for street driving it is hard to beat a stock benz with all the components up to snuff with stock sized tires.

Cutting off spring will not make the spring stiffer. It will only lower and give the suspension there less travel distance.
If you want stiffer proper springs you should buy new ones with ' a larger wire size' as MB refers to the various stiffness options.
There are posts I think where I posted the chart from the FSM on this subject.

I used to work at a spring and brake shop.. which did all the spring work for the City Of Austin... trucks regularly have to have new springs ... or reconditioned ones.. which involves some serious equipment and experience for heat treating in order to give the length of service you expect from them.
The FSM also gives full instructions having to do with car height off the road... and changing that changes the geometry of the steering.

English Bulldog · #40 01-12-2011, 11:19 PM

[QUOTE=MBeige;2634539]How much body roll is too much? Expectations have to be realistic as mentioned.

Yeah my car rolls less than this, because i do not push it on mtn roads at speed. Only place like at 40 mph 90 degree off ramp where i wont go off the cliff. when I do it rolls.

I have finished fixing all the small broken engine stuff from the car sitting in a garage for a long time. 7 years in a garage then towed to the shop and drain the diesel, and 2200 dollars of maintenance and detailing and then 2 more years sitting in a garage in one of his 23 houses. I have fixed the broken window regulator, leaking fuel line, vacuum leak, rusty hood springs, new thermostat, new akebono ceramic brakes and brake lines. The car is mechanically without any problems now. It brakes unbelievably straight and stable. I like driving with the big steering wheel and especially braking the car.

I do not think anything is wrong with my car.

I do not like the roll, and would like to dial in the car, so it rides the so called rail yet keep most of the mercedes touring ride we like.

I heard that bilstein HD in fronts and bilstein comforts in the rear works well.

I read that Winmutt bought vogtlands and then he cut the Vogtlands.

i read shocks dont really decrease roll much and i have some comforts with only 14K miles on them that if I keep, could save money to buy sway bars.

leathermang · #41 01-12-2011, 11:34 PM

If you want to ' dial in' what came with the car... put new springs on all the way around. They are relatively cheap and on the cars I have done this to it made a huge difference in feel... to jump to the anti sway bar before springs would not be logical.

#42 01-12-2011, 11:57 PM

My W123 pretty tight with new rear springs (one broke, replaced both), HD shocks all around, and the front suspension/steering completely replaced. After several $1000 of work, it's probably pretty close to it's original handling capability. Of course, just about any modern car will handle better than a good 25 year old car; my W211 will run circles around it (active suspension, traction control, better tires, better brakes, three times the power, etc.). If you expect significantly better handling, you're starting with the wrong car. If you introduce oversteer and drive it near the limit, you will probably wreck it sooner or later.

English Bulldog · #43 01-13-2011, 12:08 AM

1. BBS RS 7 x 16 Nexen N3000 205 50 16 ET 24 Diameter =24.1
2. BBS RS 8 x 16 Nexen N3000 245 45 16 ET 11 staggered set D = 24.6
3. OEM oil pan protector
4. KMAC Camber adjuster rear
5. front 3 inch spring cut
6 rear 3.5 inch spring cut

1.
2.
3.
4.
5. Wait for group buy perfect sway bars front and rear.

#44 01-13-2011, 12:15 AM

Have fun, keep the original parts.

English Bulldog · #45 01-13-2011, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

If you want to ' dial in' what came with the car... put new springs on all the way around. They are relatively cheap and on the cars I have done this to it made a huge difference in feel... to jump to the anti sway bar before springs would not be logical.

racers and mechanics agree?

A. How much for TD springs front and back with new bushings?

B. How much for TD springs front with new bushings?
B. How much for the Vogtland rears? new bushings?

A or B good ideas if I cut them.