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  #1  
Old 02-23-2011, 08:50 PM
mach0415's Avatar
Diesel Weasel
 
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Location: Lawndale, NC
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617 piston damage

So I posted some info on another SD that I bought. It had a dead cylinder 3. Thanks to all who posted info on getting the TC guide rail pin out. I removed the head today and found in pristine shape. This engine has no timing chain stretch-maybe 1 degree. I found the #3 piston broken at the top and you can see about 1 inch of the upper compression ring land circumference exposed, but the ring piece is gone. The bore is smeared with aluminum in spots. It is hard to tell if there are scratches at this point. I will pull the piston next to see the full extent of the damage. So, what causes this kind of damage? Also, is there anyone who has had good luck replacing only the affected piston after cleaning up the bore? An engine builder friend of mine told me he takes muriatic acid to remove the aluminum smear. What are your suggestions. Pics to come.

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"Spark plugs?...We don't need no stinking spark plugs!"
1985 300SD "Der Silberne Schlitten" 420,000 mi


Wish these were diesel:
2003 Ford Club Wagon 130,000 mi
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  #2  
Old 02-23-2011, 08:56 PM
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Hey Mark,
konstan did a rebuild not that long ago, he had one bad piston. He honed the bore & used a second hand piston. He has a couple of very long threads about his project. Worth a read.
Good Luck !!!
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I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort....

1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving
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  #3  
Old 02-23-2011, 09:01 PM
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Location: central Texas
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MB pistons are measured... then the New sleeve you installed in the block is bored TO FIT that piston...
IF done according to the FSM you can be in good shape going forward..
as long as you determine what caused your problem in the first place so it does not repeat...
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  #4  
Old 02-23-2011, 09:01 PM
mach0415's Avatar
Diesel Weasel
 
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Location: Lawndale, NC
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Thanks. I am going to see what he talks about. I honestly think I can get away with it, based on what I see so far. DO you have a link to the reference? Also, is this a symptom of ether use? or Was there just a weak spot somewhere?
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Mark in NC

"Spark plugs?...We don't need no stinking spark plugs!"
1985 300SD "Der Silberne Schlitten" 420,000 mi


Wish these were diesel:
2003 Ford Club Wagon 130,000 mi
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  #5  
Old 02-23-2011, 09:05 PM
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You need to be looking for a Factory Shop Manual for your engine....
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  #6  
Old 02-23-2011, 09:16 PM
mach0415's Avatar
Diesel Weasel
 
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Location: Lawndale, NC
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Thanks. I am debating doing a swap with a good used engine, b/c I am not in a position to drop $3,000 on rebuilding an engine to go into a $1,800 car.
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Thanks,
Mark in NC

"Spark plugs?...We don't need no stinking spark plugs!"
1985 300SD "Der Silberne Schlitten" 420,000 mi


Wish these were diesel:
2003 Ford Club Wagon 130,000 mi
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  #7  
Old 02-23-2011, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mach0415 View Post
So I posted some info on another SD that I bought. It had a dead cylinder 3. Thanks to all who posted info on getting the TC guide rail pin out. I removed the head today and found in pristine shape. This engine has no timing chain stretch-maybe 1 degree. I found the #3 piston broken at the top and you can see about 1 inch of the upper compression ring land circumference exposed, but the ring piece is gone. The bore is smeared with aluminum in spots. It is hard to tell if there are scratches at this point. I will pull the piston next to see the full extent of the damage. So, what causes this kind of damage? Also, is there anyone who has had good luck replacing only the affected piston after cleaning up the bore? An engine builder friend of mine told me he takes muriatic acid to remove the aluminum smear. What are your suggestions. Pics to come.
ether?
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"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
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1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

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  #8  
Old 02-23-2011, 10:06 PM
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Mark,
If you search for threads by konstan, you will find them. Maybe worth a PM to him, he can give you the lowdown on how the car is now going. He did complete set of rings & bearings.
If that bore would clean up & you could get some one on here to sell you a good piston, maybe you could get it going very cheap. Probably would be better replacing all rings & bearing shells.
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Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club group

I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort....

1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving
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  #9  
Old 02-23-2011, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by layback40 View Post
Mark,
If you search for threads by konstan, you will find them. Maybe worth a PM to him, he can give you the lowdown on how the car is now going. He did complete set of rings & bearings.
If that bore would clean up & you could get some one on here to sell you a good piston, maybe you could get it going very cheap. Probably would be better replacing all rings & bearing shells.
MB Factory Shop Manual does not suggest that a bore can be ' cleaned up' .. and since it is easy to pull the sleeve and put a new one in...that should be the recommended procedure... the chances a used bore can be cleaned up to the extent that it would pass the MB specs for installing a new or used piston are very very slight... perhaps bordering on fantasy....
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  #10  
Old 02-23-2011, 10:28 PM
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that depends on the damage done. if the original hone marks are intact, my FSM states cleaning and installing a new piston can be done.
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John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!
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  #11  
Old 02-23-2011, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vstech View Post
that depends on the damage done. if the original hone marks are intact, my FSM states cleaning and installing a new piston can be done.
I was playing the odds given the description of something wiped off the piston onto the wall of the bore.....
Once you are torn down that far... I suspect installing new sleeve would eliminate a lot of labor and questions...
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  #12  
Old 02-24-2011, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leathermang View Post
MB Factory Shop Manual does not suggest that a bore can be ' cleaned up' .. and since it is easy to pull the sleeve and put a new one in...that should be the recommended procedure... the chances a used bore can be cleaned up to the extent that it would pass the MB specs for installing a new or used piston are very very slight... perhaps bordering on fantasy....
I wouldn't call it bordering on fantasy. It is totally possible if conditions are right. If you originally have a group 0 piston and a start with a bore size of 90.898 with no severe scoring, a clean up hone can take off as much as .030mm and be still within spec of a used/new group 2 piston.


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  #13  
Old 02-24-2011, 12:43 AM
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I know of a member on here with a cleaned up bore & a second hand fitted piston. If you want a reco motor then go with new, if you want a motor that runs with out a huge expense go with what I suggested. Or just fit a second hand motor.
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Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club group

I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort....

1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving
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  #14  
Old 02-24-2011, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by layback40 View Post
I know of a member on here with a cleaned up bore & a second hand fitted piston. If you want a reco motor then go with new, if you want a motor that runs with out a huge expense go with what I suggested. Or just fit a second hand motor.
Most people do not have the measuring devices for proper determination of whether the bore is ' go or no go' with regards to ' clean up' ...
New sleeve is cheap and you have a trusted place to start.. which can be done with patience and a three blade honing tool....since you would not be trying to correct anything except the bore diameter... but the other factors in a used bore would probably require a four blade boring stones tool...and the idea of it being bored true to the centerline of the crank.... back to that ' very unlikely' situation...
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  #15  
Old 02-24-2011, 03:20 AM
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I do agree with you leathermang.
It is always best to put things proper & right. If it was one of my machines that I make a living from I would be doing a rebuild.
Mark appears to want to get the car going reliably for as little $$ as possible. He doesnt appear to be wanting to do a full restoration or rebuild. That is why I have suggested that he may be lucky & get by with a hone / second hand piston / rings. He may be able to do that for under $200 in parts if he only rings that cylinder.
Heck its number 3, I suspect you could do it with out removing the motor from the car.
There is always a risk associated with that. He probably should inspect all 5 pistons out of the motor. I cant recall if he did a compression / leak down test. If the motor goes back together & runs ok, its a win !!

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Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club group

I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort....

1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving
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