Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum > Technical Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 07-07-2011, 12:56 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: central Texas
Posts: 17,026
' The number of blades determines the number of spaces ' ????
when I first used my fingers to count up this morning... I was thinking that it was going to be x+1 or x-1.... so I was thinking that 6 blades were going to give an odd number of spaces... I am going back to bed and start over later...
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-07-2011, 01:27 PM
Jeremy5848's Avatar
Registered Biodiesel User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sonoma Wine Country
Posts: 8,389
The forward edge of the blade also contributes to any generated sound. For example, owls fly silently because of the special feathers at the leading edges of their wings. I would imagine that duplicating such a structure in cast plastic is an aeronautical engineer's dream.

BTW, both of my cars have 9-blade fans; 9 is not prime, at least not since I last checked.
__________________

"Buster" in the '95

Our all-biodiesel family
1995 E300D (W124) . .239,000 miles My car
1996 E300D (W210) . .313,000 miles Wife's car
Santa Rosa population 170,685 (2012)
Total. . . . . . . . . . . . 722,685
"Oh lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz."
-- Janis Joplin, October 1, 1970
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-07-2011, 01:39 PM
tbomachines's Avatar
ಠ_ಠ
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 4,600
Quote:
Originally Posted by lutzTD View Post
number of blades determines number of spaces, but its the trailing edge of the blade that makes the noise

primes are 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17 etc

heres why.


take an 8 blade fan, it will generate frequencies at multiples of 8, 4, 2, and 1

a 12 blade fan will generate frequencies at multiples of 12, 6, 4, 2, 3, 1
To elaborate just a tad on this point, keep in mind the way that sound waves behave. If you have a set of sound waves in phase, their amplitude (i.e. volume) multiplies at those intersecting points. A series of waves completely out of phase essentially cancels the net resulting energy, thus producing no volume (this is how noise canceling headphones work, btw). By having a prime number of blades, the sound waves coming off the fan blades will never have the opportunity to be in phase and not have a net resulting amplitude higher than the initial blade/air compression (at least in theory at a constant speed). By altering the spacing I would imagine this creates even more of an out-of-phase condition and more easily adapts to the changing speed of the engine. You should be able to have non-prime blade count with spacing that still allows for an out-of-phase condition to occur.

Edit: Actually I'm wrong on the prime part. Having them evenly spaced would create the same exact wavelength between each blade (same pitch and depth) and therefore amplify the noise dramatically. Having them unevenly spaced creates a different amount of length between each pulse, making for different wavelengths at each blade, each being out of phase with one another. Sophomoric physics mistake on my part but hey, I'm not an engineer...
__________________
TC
Current stable:
- 2004 Mazda RALLYWANKEL
- 2007 Saturn sky redline
- 2004 Explorer...under surgery.

Past: 135i, GTI, 300E, 300SD, 300SD, Stealth

Last edited by tbomachines; 07-07-2011 at 01:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-07-2011, 01:41 PM
R Leo's Avatar
Stella!
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: En te l'eau Rant
Posts: 5,367
Greg,
Did you ever see any of those YO-3s when you were in SEA?

Moons ago, my uncle was telling me about aircraft he saw when he was in Da Nang on Monkey Mountain...what he described was unlike any military airplanes I'd ever heard of. Turned out they were the QT-2 and YO-3.
__________________
Never a dull moment at Berry Hill Farm.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-07-2011, 01:53 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: central Texas
Posts: 17,026
No, I was there all of 1969... it looks like it arrived in 1970... I saw an article in Popular Mechanics later about it...that is why I thought about it..

I actually thought I remembered that YO as having Seven Blades... thus qualifying for this discussion based on that.. but as to noise...what they did was put a lot of blades on so as to reduce the speed of the prop...

This is a good ref...

http://www.answers.com/topic/propeller
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-07-2011, 03:09 PM
lutzTD's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Lutz, Florida (N of Tampa)
Posts: 2,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy5848 View Post
The forward edge of the blade also contributes to any generated sound. For example, owls fly silently because of the special feathers at the leading edges of their wings. I would imagine that duplicating such a structure in cast plastic is an aeronautical engineer's dream.

BTW, both of my cars have 9-blade fans; 9 is not prime, at least not since I last checked.

sorry I should have said prime number of blades is important if they are evenly spaced. that entire paragraph assumed even spacing, sorry

also, if you look at the quiet fans in the industry they have serrated trailing edges to break up the trailing edge pressure wave
__________________

1982 300CD Turbo (Otis, "ups & downs") parts for sale
2003 TJ with Hemi (to go anywhere, quickly) sold
2001 Excursion Powerstroke (to go dependably)
1970 Mustang 428SCJ (to go fast)
1962 Corvette LS1 (to go in style)
2001 Schwinn Grape Krate 10spd (if all else fails)
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-07-2011, 04:01 PM
1984 300SD
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 588
On some turbos the intake fan has an uneven blade pattern and no turbo wine. My 84 300SD is like this.
__________________
1984 300SD turbo 126
"My true love"

God made me an atheist and who am I to question His wisdom
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-07-2011, 04:18 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NYC
Posts: 3,637
Essentially what you have is two (or more) even bladed fans superimposed on one another -- for example, a 2-blade fan on top of a three.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-07-2011, 04:19 PM
MBeige's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 3,744
A few observations:

Some of the auxiliary fan blades have tiny balancers attached to some of the blades to balance it out. I'd guess the main engine fan won't have these.

Both the auxiliary fan blades and the main engine fan blades are unevenly spaced out. Some of the main engine fans are evenly spaced out, or grouped together (the original 6-bladed OM617 engine fan is like this), while the updated 9-bladed plastic fan for the same engine is not spaced out evenly unlike its 6-bladed metal version.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-07-2011, 04:21 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,308
Quote:
Originally Posted by lutzTD View Post


take an 8 blade fan, it will generate frequencies at multiples of 8, 4, 2, and 1

a 12 blade fan will generate frequencies at multiples of 12, 6, 4, 2, 3, 1
Why does it matter that the multiples are whole numbers versus fractional? Is a 12 blade fan going to be louder than an otherwise identical 11 or 13 blade fan?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-07-2011, 06:05 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: St. Thomas PA
Posts: 957
Power equipment also uses modulated blades for noise reduction. Flywheel cooling fan blades are unevenly spaced and so are the blades on higher-end leaf blowers. The cheapest models sold at the big box stores may not have this feature, that's why they sound like fire sirens.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-07-2011, 06:44 PM
Luxury Hooptie Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Screwston, TX
Posts: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by tangofox007 View Post
Why does it matter that the multiples are whole numbers versus fractional? Is a 12 blade fan going to be louder than an otherwise identical 11 or 13 blade fan?
That's how harmonics work. Harmonics are basically amplification of oscillation where two or more oscillation periods coincide. They can't occur at fractional ratios, because the oscillations have to be in-phase, IE, whole-number multiples of each other.
Think about making waves in a bathtub: when you splash at a regular frequency, the waves get bigger because each new impulse coincides with the crest or trough of the existing waves.
I just realized harmonics are really difficult to explain.

Our hypothetical 12-bladed fan produces a harmonic oscillation for every balanced pair of blades. Essentially, axes of symmetry on a rotating mass create oscillations at regular intervals. Non-prime numbers of blades will result in more axes of symmetry.
So the 12-blade fan oscillates at w(rate of rotation)/1, w/2, w/3, w/4, w/6, and w/12.

A 13-bladed fan will only oscillate at w/1 and w/13, and so will seem much quieter. The two oscillation frequencies do not have any common factors, so no harmonic amplification, so less vibration, so less noise.

Clear as mud?
__________________
Current:
1994 E320, Brilliantsilber 191k
1982 300D, Silberblau under a blue repaint 256k

RIP:
1995 E300D Polarweiss, 287k
1995 E320 Polarweiss, 126k
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-07-2011, 07:17 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: central Texas
Posts: 17,026
UH... no one has mentioned stringed instruments and the way length/ratios relates to these harmonics ?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-07-2011, 07:54 PM
tbomachines's Avatar
ಠ_ಠ
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 4,600
Quote:
Originally Posted by okto View Post
That's how harmonics work. Harmonics are basically amplification of oscillation where two or more oscillation periods coincide. They can't occur at fractional ratios, because the oscillations have to be in-phase, IE, whole-number multiples of each other.
Think about making waves in a bathtub: when you splash at a regular frequency, the waves get bigger because each new impulse coincides with the crest or trough of the existing waves.
I just realized harmonics are really difficult to explain.

Our hypothetical 12-bladed fan produces a harmonic oscillation for every balanced pair of blades. Essentially, axes of symmetry on a rotating mass create oscillations at regular intervals. Non-prime numbers of blades will result in more axes of symmetry.
So the 12-blade fan oscillates at w(rate of rotation)/1, w/2, w/3, w/4, w/6, and w/12.

A 13-bladed fan will only oscillate at w/1 and w/13, and so will seem much quieter. The two oscillation frequencies do not have any common factors, so no harmonic amplification, so less vibration, so less noise.

Clear as mud?
Except, regardless of how many blades it has, if they are all equal in length and spaced out evenly they will amplify like crazy. That's because each one would have the same wavelength relative to the last and following blade, they would all be generating identical pulses.
__________________
TC
Current stable:
- 2004 Mazda RALLYWANKEL
- 2007 Saturn sky redline
- 2004 Explorer...under surgery.

Past: 135i, GTI, 300E, 300SD, 300SD, Stealth
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-07-2011, 08:49 PM
Yak Yak is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 1,711
Quote:
Originally Posted by okto View Post
Just curious, does anyone know why the spacing of the fan blades round the hub on Mercedes cooling fans is non-regular?
Because
"Nonuniform event spacing in multi-event cyclic
processes results in reduction of the amplitudes of
tonal noise components."

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=5&sqi=2&ved=0CDkQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fminds.wisconsin.edu%2Fbitstream%2Fhandle%2F1793%2F10406%2Ffile_1.pdf%3Fsequence%3D1&rct=j&q=asymmetric%20blade%20spacing%20and%20fan%20noise&ei=bUYWTsmxF-Lf0QHI7uRn&usg=AFQjCNGZJAA8R1hsIg7FAd-Dfb0uSXRRvg

Or more on Fan Noise

For small fans such as those used on electric motors the noise generated by their centrifugal cooling fans can be controlled by:


Spacing the blades irregularly around the fan disc to improve the subjective quality of the noise radiated by fans.

http://www.diracdelta.co.uk/science/source/f/a/fan%20noise/source.html

Or:

The influence of irregular blade spacing of car alternator radial fans on the total sound pressure level (SPL) and the noise spectrum has been investigated. For this purpose, the SPL and spectra were computed theoretically and the values were compared to measured results for several types of fans with various blade spacing. As theoretical background, the theory describing discrete frequency sound radiated by axial fans in open space was adopted. This was done in order to model theSPLand the spectra of alternator radial fans, placed inside a casing. Furthermore, due to the low blade tip Mach number, blades were modelled as dipole point sources. It was found, in accordance with previous results from known literature, that alterations in blade spacing do not significantly alter the total SPL nor the cooling capacity of the alternator radial fan. However, significant dispersion of the sound power over several harmonics was found with irregular fan blade spacing, thus allowing for a reduction of the siren effect. This phenomenon was predicted theoretically and confirmed experimentally.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022460X98917072
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2011 Pelican Parts - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page