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  #31  
Old 07-19-2012, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
I would be willing to assist you with this project if you wish to use liquid nitrogen. I use it fairly frequently at the shop and I believe that it would make fast work of this task without the risk of damaging the joint by using the Autozone press (presses on the ball).

Let me know if you want to bring it to New Britain.
Thanks for the offer Brian! I may take you up on it if the Autozone C clamp press looks iffy.

How would your process work? Do you soak the ball joint in the liquid nitrogen to shrink it? How much will it shrink by? Will a press still be required?

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  #32  
Old 07-19-2012, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funola View Post
Thanks for the offer Brian! I may take you up on it if the Autozone C clamp press looks iffy.

How would your process work? Do you soak the ball joint in the liquid nitrogen to shrink it? How much will it shrink by? Will a press still be required?
If you guys do this could you make one of your videos funola?

I'd like to see it for myself but the airfare is a bit much at such short notice.
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  #33  
Old 07-19-2012, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funola View Post
Thanks for the offer Brian! I may take you up on it if the Autozone C clamp press looks iffy.

How would your process work? Do you soak the ball joint in the liquid nitrogen to shrink it? How much will it shrink by? Will a press still be required?
It's well documented that the Autozone press is not what you want because it presses on the ball and not on the flange.


We put the joint in liquid nitrogen for about three minutes and then quickly set it into the spindle. The nitrogen will shrink it about .005". A press is not required.

I have a bit of a concern regarding the construction of the ball joint. Any plastic components will shrink by significantly more than the steel and there could be some problems that develop with that.

A safer alternative is to use dry ice. We get about .0025" of shrink and the press might still be needed, but the force required is significantly less.
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  #34  
Old 07-19-2012, 02:59 PM
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Discussion on C-Press below: See thread #4 for creative installation method.

w123 ball joint tool
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  #35  
Old 07-19-2012, 03:18 PM
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i have the cheap 99 dollar hydraulic press from harbor freight. every single ball joint and bushing i've thrown at it, it pops them apart in just a few seconds. very easy. a shop press is worthwhile investment for any diy'er.
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  #36  
Old 07-19-2012, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by torsionbar View Post
i have the cheap 99 dollar hydraulic press from harbor freight. every single ball joint and bushing i've thrown at it, it pops them apart in just a few seconds. very easy. a shop press is worthwhile investment for any diy'er.
My guess is that you have not used your HF hydraulic press on a W123 lower ball joint yet. You will be in for a rude awakening when you do.
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  #37  
Old 07-19-2012, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
I was taking a closer look at funola's pic and looking at the knocked out Ball Joint.
Does it look like the area of that particular Ball Joint is shorter than some of the others?

Or is it an optical delusion.
I checked the knocked out ball joint and the new Lemforder. They are the same length from the bottom to the flange shoulder.
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  #38  
Old 07-19-2012, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
It's well documented that the Autozone press is not what you want because it presses on the ball and not on the flange.


We put the joint in liquid nitrogen for about three minutes and then quickly set it into the spindle. The nitrogen will shrink it about .005". A press is not required.

I have a bit of a concern regarding the construction of the ball joint. Any plastic components will shrink by significantly more than the steel and there could be some problems that develop with that.

A safer alternative is to use dry ice. We get about .0025" of shrink and the press might still be needed, but the force required is significantly less.
The liquid nitrogen is a very very cool idea however it is not going to work. The Lemforder BJ o.d. is 1.786" and is an interference fit into the knuckle hole which is 1.770 i.d. The liquid nitrogen needs to shrink the BJ by minimum 0.016" for it to drop in.

Another concern is what the liquid nitrogen will do to the grease in the BJ.

Liquid nitrogen or dry ice, a BJ press is still required, which begs the question: How long is the window before the BJ expands to it's room temperature dimension. My guess is the window is not long enough.
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  #39  
Old 07-19-2012, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funola View Post
The liquid nitrogen is a very very cool idea however it is not going to work. The Lemforder BJ o.d. is 1.786" and is an interference fit into the knuckle hole which is 1.770 i.d. The liquid nitrogen needs to shrink the BJ by minimum 0.016" for it to work.

Another concern is what the liquid nitrogen will do to the grease in the BJ.

Liquid nitrogen or dry ice, a BJ press is still required, which begs the question: How long is the window before the BJ expands to it's room temperature dimension. My guess is the window is not long enough.
.016" is massive interference. Are you positive of those figures? The force required for such a press is huge...........probably on the order of 25 tons or more.

The window is obviously limited. Screwing around with a press at room temperature must be done relatively quickly (within about 1 minute or so).

Unfortunately, we don't have a press that large. In all of my tools, I deal with interferences of .0005-.002"...........not more.

I'm positive that a threaded tool such as the one from Autozone could never press an interference of .016". Such a tool cannot develop more than about 4,000 lb. of force.
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  #40  
Old 07-19-2012, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
.016" is massive interference. Are you positive of those figures? The force required for such a press is huge...........probably on the order of 25 tons or more.

The window is obviously limited. Screwing around with a press at room temperature must be done relatively quickly (within about 1 minute or so).

Unfortunately, we don't have a press that large. In all of my tools, I deal with interferences of .0005-.002"...........not more.

I'm positive that a threaded tool such as the one from Autozone could never press an interference of .016". Such a tool cannot develop more than about 4,000 lb. of force.
Positive on the Lemforder o.d. dimension.

The knuckle hole is a taper. I was only able to measure the bottom of the taper with the caliper so the dimension 1.770 is the smaller of the two.

Not sure if you can see the details in this pic. The one on the right is the old knocked out BJ, the vertical serration teeth has been crushed upon installation. Compare it to the new one on the left. I agree a lot of force is required to press it in. I got the Lemforder in with a lot of leverage. The Autozone press did the job and survived, but it's life will be limited. The threads on the ram screw is stripping. I was hoping the C clamp will not snap. It didn't. . The next time it probably will.

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  #41  
Old 07-19-2012, 11:13 PM
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I borrowed the Autozone C clamp press and installed the Lemforder BJ. I used the press the same way as in some of the pics I've seen others used on the forum, except I made a centering bushing from sections of PVC pipe, elec tape to build up the PVC o.d. to fit tightly in a section of TV antenna mast, which fits snugly in the C clamp hole. The PVC hole fits snugly on the ball joint taper so it worked well centering the clamp so as to apply force more evenly on the ball joint's boot flange.

These are mockup pics with the knocked out BJ. I actually tested this setup and installed the old BJ, knocked it out again then installed the new Lemforder


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  #42  
Old 07-19-2012, 11:19 PM
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Since I do not have a big air impact wrench, I needed a lot of leverage to turn the C clamp ram screw.

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  #43  
Old 07-19-2012, 11:21 PM
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New Lemforder installed.



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  #44  
Old 07-19-2012, 11:23 PM
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Now I just have to figure out how to install the flat coil spring retainer for the boot without puncturing it. I bent it a little upon removal and was able to bend it back into shape. Any tips? A video would be nice.
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  #45  
Old 07-19-2012, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torsionbar View Post
i have the cheap 99 dollar hydraulic press from harbor freight. every single ball joint and bushing i've thrown at it, it pops them apart in just a few seconds. very easy. a shop press is worthwhile investment for any diy'er.
If your press is tall enough you can use the Installation Tool Below; there is a thread on it.
It is 100+ dollars now but much cheper than the Klann Tool.
It also comes with a big Punch to remove the Ball Joint.
Attached Thumbnails
Red neck lower ball joint removal-jtc-ball-joint-tool-z.jpg  

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