Duracool 12a - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

#31 06-21-2002, 01:12 PM

I still find it amusing that anyone thinks that a small amount of refrigerant that can burn is a danger when we have cars with 20+ gallons of gasoline in a rear tank. But I must remember gas tanks are in the rear and nobody ever gets hit in the rear so no danger there (ford pinto). We also have about 100 city trucks running on LPG (liquefied petroleum gas, IE propane) in this city but no chance of any explosion there. Not to mention the few city busses and TECO energy trucks running on compressed natural gas. Nope no worry. It's the few wackos like myself who have decided to say screw the high price of r12, I am going to use what the rest of the world outside the USA uses in my car and become a danger to us all

I didn't intend to make this a flammability issue, I posted what I found after trying the stuff. If it had not worked or had not been any better than 134a I would have posted as well letting people know. We all take risks every time we start the motor and pull out on the road. Having an A/C system that could flash burn in a wreck is the least of my worries. I used to spend my days 80-800 feet off the ground, before that I farmed burley tobacco and beef. Another low risk occupation

You can live your life as safe as your govt wants you to and still be run over by a bus, there are no guarantees outside of death and taxes so look at the risk, come to your own conclusion, do things your own way. I am posting my way

We old farmers can be real opinionated a**holes at times, right Greg?

leathermang · #32 06-21-2002, 02:46 PM

My original socialization with regards to machines was not as a farmer but as a helicopter pilot in the Army from 1967 to 1971 , including 1969 in Viet Nam. I can't even count the number of safety briefings I have been to. Helicopters are dangerous... but the safety briefings did not say " Dont fly helicopters"... they talked about avoiding UNNECESSARY risk.

Your reference to the gas in the tank is a red herring for this discussion because that is necessary for the automobile to function.. no choice except that the addition of fuel cell technology as is used in racing is a welcome safety feature...

The description of the oil pump pumping out two gallons in a spray is in the same category,,, necessary for the car to operate,, and unlikely because the engine ususall quits or the break is large enough to cause it to come out in a stream, not a fine mist as postulated.

People have been using the term " small risk" and like phrases to describe the risk,,, but I belive that the operative word in this ,,at least it is as far as my arguments have been based... is.. UNNECESSARY RISK. We see on the news all the time unusual things which alter peoples lives forever,,, or kill loved ones... if that one tiny but UNNECESSARY risk caused one of your loved ones a hand, eye, or death... would you write it off as casually as the descriptions in this thread have been.....? I think not.

Those examples of other risks we face have nothing to do with this discussion.... those LPG trucks and the barges filled with that stuff are very dangerous.. but have nothing to do with weighing the possibility of adding a flammable agent in what could easily be a prime situation with regards to starting an UNNECESSARY fire... and since substitutes are not only available... but sometimes the only legal method,,,as you describe in Florida... then I suggest people avoid them.

leathermang · #33 06-21-2002, 02:59 PM

Bill, On Sunday Tom gets King Ranch Cassorole,, and you get BOILED CHICKEN. :p

#34 06-21-2002, 03:34 PM

I'm not talking LPG transport trucks, I am talking the fuel used to send them down the road is LPG or compressed natural gas (CNG) These were gasoline powered trucks that have been converted to run on LPG or CNG.
Fact still remains that 134a when mixed with the oil in the system and vented in a collision would still have the same potential of fire. MSDS sheets have warnings of venting 134a under pressure into an O2 environment with an ignition source such as a spark.
Also was not questioning your technical knowledge about machines with the farmer remark. No such thing as a stupid farmer, I grew up in the family business of tobacco and beef with all the machines needed to do that. When I was little we also grew bluegrass for seed. Must be something in the genes of grass farmers that makes them opinionated

enjoy that boiled chicken Bill

franklyspeaking · #35 06-21-2002, 04:18 PM

I evaluate every option on risk reward. The reward for me would be to have an A/C system that does not take so much power. In my 240D (with 134A) there is a huge difference in A/C on and off...about 3.5MPG and considerable loss of acceleration and top speed. Sometimes I forget it's on and pull out in traffic, and unless I quickly switch it off, I am a candidate for road kill. Top speed loss is around 5mph. I could live with the milage and top speed loss, I can still go the speed limit, and it's worth the cost to stay cool. But the acceleration is really the big issue here.

I'm not sure how much performance I could recoup, but predictable performance is definitely a "safety" consideration. My thinking after all the discussion is the performance degradation issue is a much bigger safety risk, than any increase in fire hazard. Lowering pressures by half is going to translate to only a quarter of the HP requirement.

I'm going to order some Duracool.

jobah · #36 06-21-2002, 04:26 PM

I'm ordering mine as well.

leathermang · #37 06-21-2002, 04:55 PM

Franklyspeaking,, here is an easy fix to your potential road kill candidacy...

Run wires and a switch to a location on your shifter knob... when depressed it cuts out the compressor.... you get where you just naturally press it when shifting.... it would be really neat to build it into a wooden knob and it hidden...

I did this on the Karman Ghia I built an air conditioner for... it worked perfectly.. it is not a new idea overall as "passing switches" were available aftermarket which would respond to a gas engines increase in vacuum and shut off the compressor during acceleration... I really needed it with that volkswagon engine...

engatwork · #38 06-21-2002, 05:10 PM

Nothing like the heat of summer to bring out a spirited discussion concerning alternative cooling refrigerants.

After reading about the success that rebootit had with the stuff this ol tobacco farmer is going to try it in a BLACK 1985 300D in middle GA.

The best way to cool this baby down is to park it under a shade tree with a nice breeze blowing through the open windows. Come to think of it this is the same type cooling system I had about 30 some odd years ago

leathermang · #39 06-21-2002, 05:11 PM

Jobah, and TxBill,, I know, I know,, after I give my best argument against it all 8000 members of the forum will go out and change to Duracool.

:p They should send me a commission check

see ! Engatwork too.....

#40 06-21-2002, 06:16 PM

Before anyone buys this stuff I will say this...

1. If your system is running r12 and works leave it alone. It is what your system was designed for and if it's not broke don't fix it.

2. If your system has 134a and sucks when it gets hot this is good stuff, however no matter what the claims are at duracool it is still hydrocarbon based (read propane/butane mix) and will burn.

3.DO NOT use this stuff if your system leaks

4.If your system does not work and you are rebuilding then change out the drier, expansion valve and pull a good vacuum for at least two hours to suck out all moisture.

5. If your system is charged with 134a and works but you don't like the cooling it provides before you charge with 12a you MUST remove all the 134a. There is no such thing as a drop-in replacement for anything.

6. I pulled a good -29 vacuum for an hour before charging. The manufacturer of duracool tells you to pull a -10 which may be enough to suck all the old gas out but it's no big deal to keep the pump running and dry everything out. Greg brings up the point that a new drier is ~ $35.00. I will agree it's not a bad idea to change out this part no matter what, but I will admit I don't if the system was working fine.

7. The performance of both my diesels does seem better. Less drag on the compressor = more power to turn the wheels. In the 240d with 67hp I notice it more. I would not change over for this reason alone.

8. I will say it again, this stuff is flammable. DO NOT use it if your system leaks.

leathermang · #41 06-21-2002, 06:34 PM

9. If your 134a system is not working well, consider putting a parallel flow condenser on it and be sure it is NOT overfilled..... same applies to r12 ... over filling really reduces the cooling ability of a system. If the better condenser does not fix the problem it will help even more when you put the Duracool into your system.

engatwork · #42 06-24-2002, 05:25 PM

I took the 300D to the a/c shop today and had it evacuated and a new dryer installed then oil and DuraCool 12a with 35 psi on the low side at 1500 rpm put in. Unfortunately, they must have shorted something because the PBU quit working in the vent and a/c setting. Should have a new PBU in tomorrow this time. I was able to run the "split level" setting and I liked what was coming out of the bottom vents and defroast strip. Good cold air. I will keep ya'll posted.

If I ever blow up I will ask the wife to come back to this post and give ya'll my regards

because I was cool to the end

#43 06-25-2002, 07:50 AM

There are two considerations that I don't think have been discussed in this thread.

First, the individual components found in such blends leak at different rates, meaning that if you get a leak, the only way you will get the blend correct again, is to empty and refill.

Second, by using such stuff in your system, you are making it difficult for the recyclers of R12. You can cause them to contaminate a relatively large quantity of R12, causing that R12 to be lost from being recycled. This means less R12 for the future.

Additionally, with a 609 certificate, R12 can legally be purchased now for as little as $15 per can. You can get a 609 certificate online for as little as $15 and some time to study and take the test (online.)

I beg everyone to think long and hard before risking their contribution to the contamination of the remaining R12 that we have available through the recyclers. It's bad enough to think about the ^)*&GH^R%&()()JH&^$*(I*&() politicians causing all this, but now what's left for us old car fans, needs to be saved as safely as possible.

Have a great day,

#44 06-25-2002, 10:00 AM

you can get your 609 card online and the test is open book with a 3 hour time frame to take it. In other words you would have to be pretty stupid to fail the thing. I got my card several years ago before the online test was there to take but still was not hard, pretty much in the same line as getting a class A CDL drivers license. Read the book, pass the test.
However r12 freon is no where near $15.00 pound (can) here in Florida. Best price quoted was $55.00 and that was with a "dealer" discount from the parts stores. Ebay you can find it for less but you also stand the chance of being ripped off by a seller. It has happened to me twice this year and from people with 100+ feedbacks. paypal did jump in on one and refund, still waiting for ebay fraud to send me 75% of money lost in another deal.
Duracool is not a blend. It is straight hydrocarbon based, IE propane. It is not made to be recovered with r12 and although it is illegal you can vent the stuff without killing the ozone layer. If you convert your system should be labeled by law telling any tech what it is filled with. This is for their protection since some of the old leak detectors used an open flame. Not a good idea with a coolent that will burn. It also stops contamination of existing r12 freon that has been recovered. The recovery thing is is of the biggest ripoff games played here. No shop will claim they use recovered r12, they charge for "new" stuff and charge you $75.00 and up per pound when they are using r12 from their recovery system. This may be the r12 they removed from your system to repair it and then charge you full price to replace it.

#45 06-25-2002, 10:13 AM

Auto Zone has R12 for $14.99 per can if you can find a store that has any on hand.

The NAPA store where I go frequently, has it on hand for $29.50 per can. RefrigerantSales.com has it for $34.00 per can.

The days of $55.00 per can days are over, at least for now.

For me, $30 per can is preferable to contaminating the system with a volatile, explosive gas. This is only my opinion, and my particular priority set. It's not meant to start or fuel any debates.

Have a great day,