airfoil,

You are correct. There is not enough of this junk in one air conditioiner to blow up the world.

Have a great day,

posted this before but I guess some people will not do a search. Using duracool 12a would be the way I would go if you wanted me to do a full conversion. Reason being it is compatible with ANY oil, has a lower head pressure, and works great in my cars in central Florida where it either cools or it doesn't. 134a will work in the newer compressors but makes the older york piston style compressor sound like they are ready to blow. You will also feel the "hit" when the compressor cycles much harder with 134a vs duracool since the pressure is almost double with 134a. The way I see it is 134a is a quick sell the car and get rid of a problem as fast as possible while r12 or duracool 12a is something that will last and not kill the inner workings of your A/C system. Bottom line is that there are no honest A/C shops in Florida. All will rip you off as soon as they get a chance. You are better off taking the test to buy your own r12 or convert to a hydrocarbon refrigerant if need be. Since the cost of r12 is around $30.00 can compared to $5.00 for duracool it's a no brainer which I would use. Even the tree huggers like hydrocarbon refrigerants.

DuraCool is great stuff but some people who live in extreme temperatures have found the cooling drops off rapidly at high temps... I'm talking 100-120F, like Tempe AZ, or Sacramento CA. Just because a particular refrigerant works well in one part of the country doesn't mean it will in another. R-134a is probably great stuff for people in Montana and North Dakota, but would be totally useless for folks near Death Valley, for example. Just something to keep in mind when you're making decisions. One downside to DuraCool is since it's a blend, you can't top off - have to evacuate & recharge. But at $5/can, it's at least affordable!

__________________
Dave
Boise, ID
Check out my website photos, documents, and movies!

i think R414a is autofrost x4 according to their website. so i think i'm gonna goforit. if the indy wants the R12 in the system he can have it...
hopefully the thing will hold a charge.. it would be nice to have the windows up this summer!

will report the outcome.

__________________
1984 300D Turbo - 231k....totalled 11/30/07 RIP

I've been off the computer for awhile. I did see this thread start up the other day and thought about replying, but you guys were hashing it out so good I thought i would let it ride. If you want to use R12 more power to you. The problem is that most shops do not carry R12 anymore and don't want to pay the price of it. If the customer comes back 6 months later with another leak they expect it to be fixed for free, most shops cannnot afford this for any length of time. Many shops have gotten out of a/c work altogether because of all the controversy that the government has caused. I'm not trying to decieve anyone I sell Duracool and have for over 8 years. I've charged up hundreds of cars with Duracool. Most of them have been R12 systems, but lately I've been charging alot of 134a cars. 134a cars don't cool as well as R12 cars did. The sad thing about 134a is that nobody reads the MSDS. You are not supposed to use 134a with aluminum for any reason. Why do you think the manufacturers went to it. It destroys the system in a short period of time. Another thing they won't tell you is that 134a is combustible. Gasoline burns at about 2500 degrees. 134a burns at over 12000 degrees. You will see the evidence along the side of the interstates. Start counting the spots where the asphault is melted. Duracool will burn also at 1636 degrees, it is a flash that lasts 1 to 1 1/2 seconds. I've lit it plenty of times just to prove to myself that it isn't dangerous. Another thing is that people never read the warnings on cans. Hidden in the fine print on 134a cans it states that breathing it may cause death without warning. They never tell you how much it takes to cause death. there was a test performed at Wright-Patterson Air Force base in Dayton OH in July 1997 where the first volunteer was given 4000 parts per million, At 4 1/2 minutes he clinically died. It was covered up quick. I hope you have a good insurance policy because when 134a eats through the evaporator core into the passenger compartment it is hard to detect because it doesn't have a strong odor. Death from 134a gives the appearance of a heart attack. If you don't believe me just read a good MSDS. I recommend Ford's it was written in 1990.
Someone mentioned that Duracool did not cool very well in AZ because of the high temperatures. I've sold plenty to people in AZ, CA, NV and TX and have never had any complaints. Many of the same people call back and reorder. Many of them have bought a case and it lasts them about two or three years before they need any more. If I did not believe in what I'm doing I would have walked away years ago.
Have a nice day.

i'm glad my thread is flushing some members from out of the woods!

__________________
1984 300D Turbo - 231k....totalled 11/30/07 RIP

Also I forgot to mention that I have never had a problem with topping off a system that had Duracool in it. I also add Duracool to R12 systems without any problems, I do recommend for people to get 134a out of their system before adding Duracool even though it will work fine. We do make the statement to evacuate and recharge because some large systems that use Duracool are critical to pressure and temperature, cars are not. Now the USEPA would tell you not to mix refrigerants, so why did they approve blends in the cans [Autofrost, Mccool, Chill it, Freeze 12, Hot Shot]. You tell me, but I think we have been had. If you will do your research you will find most of the replacements are blends of 134a. Why would they do everthing they could to get 134a into your car one way or another ? You tell me.

Now that I'm starting to get warmed up I read some of the previous posts again and the thought hit me. How many of you have radial tires on cars that that came out with bias ply tires on it? Why? Because they work better. Hyrocarbons have always been the best refrigerants because they work better. Why are they not used more often, because you cannnot patent them. Dupont would love it if they held the patent on hydrocarbons, but the manufacturers wouldn't because they make the system to long, designed obsolesence. Personally I don't use auto a/c in my cars very often, but I definitely want it in my house. I put Duracool 22a in my home unit several years ago and I would bet that my a/c unit will last longer than yours and my electric bill is lower than yours. Why, because hyrocarbons are better refrigerants. They do not become acidic because they have no chlorine or fluorine in them. Check out your periodic table. Fluorine is the most unstable element in the table. Believe me I have done my homework. When 134a decomposes it turns into hydrogen fluoride. When that comes in contact with moisture it becomes hydrofluoric acid. Hydrofluoric acid is the highest liability product in the chemical industry. You are only allowed 6 parts per million of hydrogen fluoride in an 8 hour shift. Hydrogen fluoride kills any living tissue. When you breath it becomes hydrofluoric acid as it comes in contact with the moisture in your lungs.
I've probably told you things you did not want to know tonight. Sorry. Have a nice day.

Yep, instead there are plenty of cars around with flammable r-134 on the road today that are potential time bombs.



Herb
'82 240D
'87 300SDL
'92 300D 2.5 Turbo

A car that currently has R-12 should absolutely not convert to R-134a or any refrigerant that requires PAG/POE oils. DuraCool works with either oil, allegedly. Personally I would not switch since DuraCool does not perform as well as R-12 - strictly based on physiscs, and the temp charts. The cost is not bad for DIY R-12, but if you're paying a shop for R-12 they are probably gouging you. I refer back to my "penny wise, pound foolish" comment earlier... fix the leaks, pressure AND vacuum test to confirm, and re-charge with R-12. (beating head against wall)

__________________
Dave
Boise, ID
Check out my website photos, documents, and movies!

redfox,

Thanks for contaminating our R12 supply by adding duracool to an R12 system without recovering the existing R12 before contaminating it with your miracle drug.

It is not uncommon for those recovering R12 to spoil a whole 50 pound cannister by recovering the refrigerant from one system such as yours that has been mixed with something else.

If you want to use the stuff, that's your choice and I honor and defend that choice, but PLEASE don't be mixing it with R12, or put it into a system without labeling the system. This leads to a situation where it is later recovered in a way that spoils the R12 supply for those of us who wish to use it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll make a deal with you. I won't get in the way of your using your miracle drug, if you will stop mixing it with R12!!!!!!!

Good day,

Redfox, You have posted a lot about how Duracool is better than 134a ....

But lets remember that the thread started with a question about alternatives to a system that is STILL R -12...

How about a truthful comparison between Duracool and R-12 ?

Do you think someone with R-12 should convert it to Duracool ? Strickly based on the physics....keeping in mind that R-12 is back down to an average of $20 per pound delivered......( most cars will need less than three pounds )...

Truthfully R12 is an excellent refrigerant, but it is not the best. R12 is also corrosive and toxic, but not even in the same catagory as 134a. Years ago most of your evaporator coils and condenser coils were made of copper with aluminum fins. R12 and R22 have very little effect on copper because of the density of the metal. Many people who had cars with steel and cast pumps never experienced problems with the pumps. Today the pumps are made with a blend of aluminum and magnesium. This shortens the life span. R12 is also corrosive to these. Hydrocarbons are the best refrigerants and always have been. The reason hydrocarbons have not been used more in the states is because Dupont came in with R12 back in the 1930s with R12 so cheap nobody could compete with them for 60 years, but then they got greedy and jacked up the price and it gave hydrocarbons a place in the market again. Larry do you really believe that the chemical companies are not making any more R12. The ban to stop making R12 went into effect Dec 31st 1995. Do you think all these cans and canisters have been sitting in stock somewhere? Dupont does anything they want to with the government's blessing. When you want to increase the price of a product you artificially create a shortage, then people will be willing to pay any price. Do you really believe that R12 is destroying the ozone layer? R12 is heavier than air, it holds together as a molecule for 130 years, so how did it bounce up to 75000 feet to destroy the ozone layer? You accuse me of contaminating our R12 supply by mixing Duracool with the R12. I've been selling tools and equipment to mechanics and shops for 23 years. When this first started coming down the equipment companies wanted us all to start pushing their reclaimers at 5000.00 per unit. Most of my customers could not afford it without going into debt so I wouldn't do it. Snap=on, Mac, and Matco all jumped onto the bandwagon. Today most of those machines are sitting back in the corner collecting dust having seen very little use because most systems when they come in are empty. Most of the systems that I work on are empty or have less than 1 lb. in them. The reason they come to me is because they can't afford to have someone else charge it up for them. I charge 7.00 per can installed, so most of the time it costs them 14.00 to 21.00 to have their a/c working again. I would rather just ship all my product out to the customer and let them repair their own systems like they did 20 years ago. A/c work is not rocket science. I sell everything they need to do their own work and no I'm not getting rich. I struggle every day to pay my bills just like most other people. The truth is that the biggest cons are the best. Practically every man, woman and child in this country knows what the word freon means today. Freon is destoying our ozone layer, but is it? You tell me.

After reading the posts again I need to add this. Duracool 12a performs marginally better than R12 because the boiling point of R12 is -21 and Duracool12a boils at -25.9, 134a boils at -15. Hyrocarbons are easier to compress than CFCs and HFCs so you will notice a lower head pressure which translates to longer life for your unit, and reduced drag on your engine. In home units this means lower amp draw and shorter run time = lower electric bills. Through the 90s most of our power companies did not care about cutting energy costs, now their attitude seems to be changing. We are getting alot more interest from the big boys.

Just looking at boiling points isn't a complete analysis of refrigerants. Certainly when producing an R-12 substitute it's necessary to more-or-less mimic the pressure/temperature curve of R-12.

However, different refrigerants adsorb differing quantities of heat in the process of boiling. I think the formal term is "latent heat of vaporization." Refrigerant a may adsorb 10K kilocalories of heat in the process of boiling in your evaporator, while refrigerant b adsorbs 11K kilocalories. Guess which one will produce cooler air? R-22 based blends seem to offer the best cooling performance. Not surprisingly, R-22 has a greater latent heat of vaporization.

There's one other point. Each refrigerant also has a critical temperature above which it cannot be liquified no matter how high the pressure. When the high side of the system reaches this temperature all cooling ceases - without the vapor -> liquid cycle on the high side of the system, there's no liquid -> vapor cycle happening in the evaporator, and no cooling. One downside of hydrocarbons is their relatively low critical temperature, hence the reason you see some push back against using them in very demanding climates such as Phoenix or the high desert.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled flame war.

- JimY