Smoking, carboning, poor cold off idle with little to no blowby. What could it be? - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

lietuviai · #31 03-12-2004, 08:24 PM

Well I got the car running good and it WAS the IP timing. I advanced it by rotating the IP about a 1/4" and now its running great. I even adjusted the ALDA a little to give it a little more power when the turbo kicks in. Only time and good drive will tell for sure. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

#32 03-12-2004, 08:26 PM

Congratulations! Does this mean that you're going to keep it?

I'll have to tell my friend with the 83 300D that rotating the pump solved your problems... he's having the same problems. He also has 10° of chain stretch.

psfred · #33 03-12-2004, 08:29 PM

VDub:

Replace the chain first, it may cure the timing problem too.

I'm going to borrow a drip tube soon and check the timing on the 220D -- still won't start with a new chain, but it slipped and I suspect the timing is somewhat off now.

Peter

#34 03-12-2004, 08:31 PM

Fred,

I'll tell him to do that. He recently adjusted the valves and noticed no difference at all (100,000 miles since the last valve adjustment

).

BoostnBenz · #35 03-12-2004, 10:49 PM

Yes I think 10* isn't a very safe point, for the around $100 cost of all the timing chain stuff I'd much rather do that than adjust the timing to the incorrect setting. If the chain was elongated that much then odds are the IP was timed to the factory setting so if he put a new chain in it, it would have ran better.

If you jumped a tooth or two it should be easy to see by checking it with the mark on the cam tower and gauge on the harmonic balancer. The 300Ds are 18* difference per tooth, so if it is a ways off this gauge will let you know before it does any damage (in terms of the valvetrain that is). I like to double check everything before trying to start it just to be certain.

That is superlative lietuviai!! I hope you realize how nice your car really is and decide to keep it, while they are PITAs while not working right they sure are nice when they are!! I think I'll set my timing back to factory specification rather than 1* advanced and do the woodruff keys here, perhaps next weekend.

That is good to know 240Joe, thanks, I hope I'll never have to use that information myself though.

I got a few little problems fixed on the car today, I'll go hunting for the one way valve on my compression tester or making something make-shift to work so I can get the glow plugs back in and take it for a drive. If it still smokes after an italian tune up, then next weekend it'll probably get the woodruff keys.

lietuviai · #36 03-13-2004, 12:30 PM

BoostnBenz, yes it's great to get the car running good. It's easier to appreciate the car now. You were right about suggesting that I check my IP timing. For now, I'm going to keep the pump advanced and see how it does. The injectors that I have in it now are calibrated to pop at 140 Bar. I'm wondering if I have a failing IP if I had to advance it to make the car run right or is it because I may have a significant amount of chain stretch? I think this may deserve a new thread.

psfred · #37 03-13-2004, 01:49 PM

The valve timing is correct, but the chain slipped off the cam while I was wrestling it in, so I'm not sure the IP timing is OK. Cranks fine (too much blowby, but that's a different story), but blows huge clouds of unburned diesel and only stumbles instead of starting. Battery goes down too fast to suspect really low compression, so I'd do the timing.

IP timing is dependent both on chain condition and how good a job has been done on installation -- it will fit in any rotational position, so you must be pretty careful installing it, or it will be way early or way late. Easy enough to fix on the 615, everything is accessable and it's easy to get the pump off. on the 617, it's more complicated as the pump is a bear to remove.

Peter

lietuviai · #38 03-13-2004, 02:02 PM

My timing chain has never been touched, its original. Psfred, you're not kidding that the IP could be difficult to remove. That one bolt between the block and the IP is almost impossible to get at and this was ONLY to adjust the IP timing.

BoostnBenz · #39 03-14-2004, 06:14 PM

Odds are your timing chain is quite elongated which caused this problem. Has it came as a gradual problem which kept getting worse or did it start all of the sudden?

When I first started feeding my chain in it slipped 4 teeth off the cam gear,

I had my helper restrap the chain there for a moment then cut it loose a couple minutes later. I yanked that SOB back to where it was supposed to be, then went on like nothing happened. I thought about what I did wrong that night, I didn't have the motor at TDC!!

I guess I should head outside and try to get my gauge's one way valve working, I haven't done anything to the car since friday. Everything is pretty much waiting for the compression test still.

lietuviai · #40 03-15-2004, 01:56 PM

It's hard to say how sudden my symptoms occurred. I guess you can say the problem reared its ugly head when I installed the calibrated injectors. I drove the car Sunday and it started fine cold and idled on its own for the first time since I have owned the car. The idle was not too smooth though but I guess no diesel idles perfectly when its first started cold. Also when driving off, the engine sounded like it had marbles rolling around in the combustion chambers maybe not unlike the sound of preignition in a gasser. The engine seems to sound a bit louder as well. I think it may be a little too advanced right now but it seems to have enough power while driving and it did not run any hotter than it usually does. It may take a little tinkering to get it right.
As far a new chain goes, I'm not going to mess with the old one. I plan on leaving the chain as it is for now.

1stimer · #41 03-15-2004, 05:20 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by psfred

And plate off the EGR -- if the valve is stuck open (or sticks when opened), it will produce EXACTLY the symptoms you have. A broken closing spring on the EGR will allow it to stay open all the time, and you will get HUGE amounts of smoke at low speeds, along with snail-like performance.

psfred hit it on the head for my problem---I was thinking timing, injectors, etc, but it was my egr sticking open. Solved everything. No smoke now and great off the line performance increase.

psfred · #42 03-15-2004, 08:01 PM

DJ:

Your injection timing is too fast -- you really need to set it with a drip tube or substitute, it's not gonna run much better way to fast that it did too late, and you can burn the prechambers.

Some noise is normal cold -- even my 603 clatters a little, but is should subside pretty quickly and essentially disappear as the engine warms up some. Fast timing will also give you rough idle.

I'd also plan on the timing chain replacement -- they DO eventually wear to the point they fail, and that's expensive, plus you still have late valve timing, reducing low end power and making more smoke than you should.

Peter

lietuviai · #43 03-15-2004, 09:47 PM

Peter, I don't seem to have a smoking problem and my low end power seems to be as it should. LarryBible suggested the drip tube method but I'm not sure by what he meant by using the hand pump to get the IP to drip. Other than what sounds like pinging to me, the car appears to run fine. It idles smoother than it ever had.
I realize a broken timing chain would have disaterous consequences but I 've never heard of one failing on a 617 motor. This is not saying that its not possible, with my luck I'd probably experience it first hand. Unfortunately, there's no way way I would try to change the chain on my own and paying a shop to do it is beyond what I feel like spending on this car at this point. I don't feel competent enough to try feeding the chain in like many have written here to do this.

BoostnBenz · #44 03-15-2004, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lietuviai
It may take a little tinkering to get it right.

Why not just get the tool?

As for the hand pump for the drip tube method the thing is since the car isn't running and you are timing by the fuel flow you need a way to induce some flow. By pumping the hand pump to create a little flow you should be able to gauge it, without, well no fuel would go anywhere.

Replacing a timing chain is really nothing that difficult, if you could replace injectors you could replace the timing chain, it just takes a good deal longer to do it. I've heard of a case or two of a cam being snapped which would be the result of a failed chain, quite something to think that big beefy cam getting snapped into 3 and blown through the camshaft cover!!

Still nothing new with the car, maybe wednesday afternoon I can do something otherwise it won't be until this weekend before I get something accomplished on it.

lietuviai · #45 03-16-2004, 12:46 PM

I'm planning to just put it all back the way it was with the old injectors and not hassle with trying to make it run a little better which is all it seems that I would accomplish. I don't want to risk burning up my pre-chambers either with having the timing too advanced which it is now. It ran good enough before and the only thing that was a bit annoying was the tick from one of the injectors. Heck its a diesel and I can't expect it to run as smooth or as quiet as a gasser.