Fine... set the timing half way between what it is now, and what it was then. You really should do the drip tube thing though. It sounds easy enough, and Larry is talking about the priming pump that you unscrew and then pump.

Sounds like a bit more than just an injector ticking. It should run reasonably smooth but I wouldn't count so much on quiet.

I agree with VeeDub, if you aren't willing to buy the tool just set it halfway where it was then and where it is now. If it is way to far advanced it lets out quite a bit of black smoke easily.

__________________
Jeff M.
Mercedes W123 DIY pages are now located here.
1983 / 1984 300D Sold
2000 CLK430 Cabriolet ~58k Sold
2005 Avalanche 4x4 ~66k

VeeDubTDI & BoostnBenz, I think I'm done messing around with this car. I rotated the pump back little by little while the car was running and all it did was it ran rougher and rougher the closer it got back to the original timing mark. I then tried the drip method and it put me right back at the original IP timing mark. So I locked the IP pump at that mark and put my old injectors back in. It ran OK, with a minimal amount of smoke and it idled OK as well. Got my old tick back as well. I'll just have to live with it. At least I no longer have the sound of marbles thrashing around in my cylinders. I guess that without a doubt, I've got timing chain stretch. That's what seems to be the root of my problem. The thing is, I don't want to try to feed in a new timing chain. I don't feel comfortable doing it the way I've read about it the forum. I've also read about the headaches some members have had. If I were to do it, I'd rather just do it by taking off the front cover and whatever else that would have to go with it. But that were "if" I would do it. I'm just going to let the next owner take on the job of changing the timing chain. It runs good enough now for me. And as long as it holds up long enough for me to finish school in June with minimal upkeep, that'll be good enough for me.

__________________
DJ


84 300D Turbodiesel 190K with 4 speed manual sold in 03/2012

DJ:

With a helper the chain replacment is easy. It's only a pain alone the first time you do it.

You cannot take the front cover of an OM617, it doesn't have one -- hollow casting. Even when rebuilding you have to fish the chain through the chain case.

If you don't want to do it, have it done - the car will run better.

Peter

__________________
1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!

Worst case scenario if you drop the chain is you pull the oil pan and refeed it back up. The camshaft is easily timed to the crankshaft again if that is lost but the IP is a little more difficult to time but surely doable.

__________________
Jeff M.
Mercedes W123 DIY pages are now located here.
1983 / 1984 300D Sold
2000 CLK430 Cabriolet ~58k Sold
2005 Avalanche 4x4 ~66k

It all sounds doable, not to sound like I'm making excuses now, but it seems that the hardest thing will be is to find someone to help me do it. Would this be something that my wife could help me with even though she has little mechanical knowledge?
Here's a what if, what if I go through all the trouble of changing the timing chain and then find out the IP is the cause of my trouble that I had with getting the car to run right? I am a little suspicious of it as well.

__________________
DJ


84 300D Turbodiesel 190K with 4 speed manual sold in 03/2012

BoostnBenz,

If I understand you correctly, you're getting black smoke and low power at low RPM. Correct? Assuming you either have no EGR, or it's blocked off, the issue is quite simply excess fuel (assuming compression is normal). One possibility which nobody has mentioned is a bad ALDA. If one of the internal anneroid capsules fails, it will provide too much fuel, especially at low RPM. You could reverse the usual ALDA tweak (turn the shaft CW to lean it out) and see if that cures the low RPM smoking. If so, that could be the problem. You'll lose high-RPM power with the ALDA turned down like that so you'd need to get a used ALDA somewhere, and dial it in. They're not available new and you can't replace the capsules separately. Used ones are generally under $50, even less at Pick-n-Pull.

If the ALDA is fine, then I suspect something is awry with the IP calibration. I'd check compression first, for grins. You can buy a compression tester with a bunch of adapters - including the Bosch one for MB diesels - for $100. I got that set and it works OK. If it all looks fine in the compression department, it's pretty likely to be the pump. HOWEVER, I would definitely have the injectors pop tested first! Doesn't matter how "clean" they are, you need to pop test them!!! Shouldn't cost more than ~$30 or so at a diesel shop for 1/2 hour labor, you hand them 5 loose injectors and it takes them 10 minutes tops. I've watched it done - it's pretty enlightening. Replace any bad injectors before messing with the pump. And yes, I'd get a used pump before spending $500+ for a rebuilt!

BTW - I don't like the SirTools injection lock tool. Some people had problems with it not fitting properly. The "genuine Mercedes" tool is only about $25 plus S&H, you can order one from Caliber or Rusty. Some people were told it wasn't available in the USA and if that nonsense comes up, you can always get it from www.speed-autoteile.com but S&H will be a little higher. Here's a photo of the OE tool:

http://www.meimann.com/images/mercedes/OM603_injection/IP__lock_tool.jpg

__________________
Dave
Boise, ID
Check out my website photos, documents, and movies!

The cheapest I heard for POP testing was (at least) $45 and the higher being (at least) $65, I find it hard to believe it'd take over 10minutes to do this testing on 5 loose injectors!

It smokes at all speeds though, not just at low rpms. However due to the fact I directly see it at idle it is when it is most noticeable to me, but before timing I could see it at cruise in my rearview mirror at night. No MB parts in the yards around here, at least for a turbo 300.

Yea I'm still fighting with the compression tester, it has gave me quite a few problems hopefully I can get the one way valve replaced or fixed soon so I can get the car back together!

I was told that the tool wouldn't be available in US, I was also told SIR makes the tool for them so I just got it at skyway tools.

__________________
Jeff M.
Mercedes W123 DIY pages are now located here.
1983 / 1984 300D Sold
2000 CLK430 Cabriolet ~58k Sold
2005 Avalanche 4x4 ~66k

BoostNbenzy

This post is so long, with others adding their problems in at various times, it is difficult to figure out what problem you are having. This is what I would do:

1. Forget compression testing....it will be a waste of time
2. Forget playing with the alda....
3. Did you get the injectors tested at an injection shop. Not just to see if they are clean, or pop at the correct pressure, but if they spray correctly.
4. I think you said you checked IP timing, and that is a key factor. I used the drip method, and it takes a bit of practice, but works very well.
5. I assume you made sure the air filter is not plugged up.

If injection timing is correct and the injectors are good, you should have no smoke at idle, in park or in drive. Even engines with below average compression will burn clean.

BTW, the reason I say to skip the compression testing is that even if you do everything correct, you won't know what to do with the results anyway. Rebuilding these engines isn't worth the time and money....just find another car.

240Joe

That's what I'm leaning toward, but I may not even replace it. I have other vehicles that I can depend on.

__________________
DJ


84 300D Turbodiesel 190K with 4 speed manual sold in 03/2012

1- I already have the GPs out and tester waiting, just have to get the one-way valve working so I may just as well do it.
2- Yes I don't care to add another variable into this equation at the moment.
3- Not yet, I haven't done much anything to the car in the past week or so even then it was unrelated to this problem.
4- Indeed, I set it 1* advanced and used the quite precise and accurate lock tool method. It is quite binary using this method where as the other methods have a little grey between the black and white regions.
5- Over the elapsed time I've tried a few different air filters, I'm now running a K&N.

I highly doubt that the compression is bad as it starts down so low in temperatures, only time it didn't (around 0*F after setting 8hrs) was due to electrical problems more than mechanical.

This is true but I'd like to not assume a thing if I can, while the data won't mean much to me it is just peace of mind that they are indeed good. Very true.

__________________
Jeff M.
Mercedes W123 DIY pages are now located here.
1983 / 1984 300D Sold
2000 CLK430 Cabriolet ~58k Sold
2005 Avalanche 4x4 ~66k

Hmmm. OK then.

1) In this instance, I don't believe a compression test is a waste of time. If the results show a bad cylinder at least Jeff would know not to dink with the pump or timing. Explain to me how it's a waste of time again?

2) Perhaps you don't understand how the ALDA circuit works. If one of the capsules fail, it will overfuel across the entire RPM range. But hey, too much fuel wouldn't cause smoke all the time, now would it?

3) That's the whole point of getting them tested - pop pressure AND correct pattern. Last time I had it done, the shop didn't even charge me, it was going to take them more time to write up the paperwork & take my credit card than it took the tech to test the injectors. Besides, $45 is still cheaper than buying 5 new or rebuilt ones, which would need to be pressure matched anyway (they're not set to a specific pressure when rebuilt & boxed up). Mismatched pop pressures can cause uneven idle if more than ~3 bar difference...

4) I think his IP timing is dead on, unless the TDC indicator is inaccurate. The IP lock tool is, IMO, more accurate than the wet methods - or at least equal anyway. It takes more than 2 degrees either way to make much difference, at least with visible smoke - I've had my cars +/- 2 degrees and it mostly affected MPG and to a lesser extent, the "diesel" noise at idle.

5) Good point about the filter but it sounds like Jeff's got that covered too.


If the car starts down to ~0*F that's an excellent indication that compression is great - BUT, was the car smoking & acting up when it was that cold & starting OK? Which leads us back to the IP, and the ALDA is a lot easier & cheaper to mess with than pulling the pump.

Good luck.

Yes it was smoking at the same time as the winter driving in cold temperatures. Just recently I found that the motor smokes itself out (slows down with more fuel) after about 1k rpms cold though.

Perhaps the ALDA will be worth looking into but my current plan is to:
~Do compression test & POP test injectors, italian tune-up, test results
~Insert 2* woodruff key & retime IP to spec timing rather than 1* advanced & verify valve adjustments, test results
~Start messing with the ALDA settings, test results
~Buy a verified, used, IP.

__________________
Jeff M.
Mercedes W123 DIY pages are now located here.
1983 / 1984 300D Sold
2000 CLK430 Cabriolet ~58k Sold
2005 Avalanche 4x4 ~66k

gsxr,

Do you have any idea how far your compression would have to fall to get black smoke at idle? Remember, the car still starts ok, which is the best indicator of compression. Believe me, it is a total waste of time to do a compression test in this case.

And you're way off base on the ALDA. You still don't understand how these engines work. What do you think happens when you put more fuel into a diesel at idle? The engine speeds up, that what. It doesn't produce more black smoke.

The black smoke at idle is either an IP timing problem or an injector problem, or a lack of air, which he says the air filter is clean.

You are wasting his time with this off base advice. Every time you send him down the wrong path, you cost him time and money and increase his chances of breaking something during a maintenance action.

All, IMHO, of course.

240Joe

**sigh**

1) All it takes is one burned valve to kill compression.

2) Excess fuel triggered by the ALDA with the throttle linkage at the idle stop won't rev the engine, AFAIK. I have heard reports of people with failed ALDAs in the mode I described the the symptom was smoke and low power, in some cases so bad the car was not driveable. As an experiment go remove your ALDA and drive the car, see what it's like. (I haven't done this but I hear it's enlightening.)

3) I'm confident enough in Jeff's abilities that he has plenty of airflow and the IP timing is correct.

But we shall see, I suppose. All IMHO, of course. Looks like one of us gets a nice helping of crow when Jeff nails the problem down.