Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion > Diesel Performance Tuning

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #166  
Old 12-30-2010, 04:38 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Texafornia
Posts: 5,493
I would give Tom another try-but the shipping from Germany is the main hassle everyone makes mistakes--but ther cant be anymore like this...for sure.
I have heard of German precision my whole life, and this was something I didn't think I even had to worry about. But i have to do something--8mm is more than anyone needs, 6.5 is all the fuel a iron merc can use. I got a M also. That place in netherlands said there were 7mm avalable for the MW??????????????????????????

Last edited by panZZer; 12-30-2010 at 06:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #167  
Old 12-31-2010, 01:53 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 348
Alan,

the place in the Netherlands (DPP) is not dealing with MW, only M.
An other option is to find a M-Turbo governor and put it on the 5 cyl. M pump.
One set of 6 elements (7mm) for the M-pumps is already in Virginia available.
I still have not back my 5 cyl. M Turbo pump (with 7.5mm elements) so I can't report any results up to now.

Somehow I will manage to get a new set of 6.5mm MW elements to Peter free shipped, but I have to wait until they are produced.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #168  
Old 12-31-2010, 05:05 PM
10mm MW
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 711
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47dodge View Post
The rack limiter, how does this play/work with torque control? You recommended putting it back in before any torque control adjustments.
A properly set rack limiter prevents the rack from going beyond the point where the pulse width of the injection exceeds the time available for the fuel to burn as completely as possible. There really isn't any reason that the rack should ever go beyond that point. From a "quality tune and drivability" aspect, it is a very good feature.

By turning the rack limiter in all the way, or removing it completely, you remove one of the players in the governor, and the result is that the rack position limit is determined by the balance point between the Throttle Spring, Torque Control, and Max Speed Limiter spring tensions. IMO this is not a good way to increase fueling because there is no positive control of the rack at full power, which is where the engine can melt down if EGTs are not monitored and the throttle adjusted accordingly.

For a competent driver this not a problem, but for the typical, "idiot light" driver, it is only a matter of time before the EGTs go to critical mass. Remember that the 240D is underpowered and the typical driver will have it floored 95% of the time. Just my 2 cents.

If you send me your e-mail address, I will send what I came up with to answer your other question in a more detailed manner, however, since you are knowledgeable about IPs, I do not explain everything in regards to theory as a novice would need.

On a side thought for philosophical discussion;

I was talking to a friend the other day about the difference in explaining how something specialized works, and how to do something that is very specialized.

We both agreed that the difference is value. Providing an explanation of how something works, (information that is available in text books etc), is an educational exercise and is in the value of a favor, however, special knowledge that is acquired via sources, methods, and experiences outside of the traditional educational domain are much more valuable. This is why IP shops don't post the "secrets" as to what and why they do what they do, people will pay to have them do that voo doo that they do.

Like many others in this country, I am not as finically secure as I would like, and I am always trying to figure out how to take what I know and can do and make money with it. After all it cost me time and money to acquire the knowledge in the first place. I imagine that some will say that I am being selfish. My first response to that would to say, Im not stopping them from providing the information to the world.
Reply With Quote
  #169  
Old 12-31-2010, 08:13 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: virginia
Posts: 496
pm sent with email address.

I need to put a egt gauge on the 240, before I go much further. I do have one on my Dodge (89, not the 47)and do watch it a good bit when trailer towing. The 240 will never be a hot rod, but getting what is fully available is my goal. Just the tuning so far has made it from being a bit to slow in traffic, to being good enough that I do not feel I'll be run over. It is a pleasant car to drive, so I do not really want to change the character of the car. If I need to watch the egt's that's fine.

I did find in a response to a post about adding a turbo to 240, that you listed what your then current adjustments were. You have rack limiter removed, and torque capsule adjusted. Have you since put the rack limiter back in?

It seems to me the progression of tuning is leading to larger elements to allow more fuel sooner, as you have mentioned already. But then the adjustments of before will of course be incorrect. So rack limiters go back in, and somewhat milder adjustments otherwise, all because of the gain from larger elements.

Philosophical discussion, About ten years ago I decided time to do something else, so I started a boat shop, building wooden boats. yea I know strange jump from diesel mechanic. But sometimes you just have to follow your heart. I have found myself giving a lot of advice on boat building to many people as I have become better at it. Should I keep my mouth shut, so they will have to bring their boat project to me? perhaps, but perhaps not. So far I have found that I have kept at least a two year waiting list. It would not be possible for me to build/fix every boat. By giving freely (advice that is)the owners are able to fix or build what they may not otherwise have. However they will often come to me for specialized parts. So my advice it not always at a total loss economically. I have also found that it builds trust, and general good will. Each business owner needs to decide what their limit is as far as giving info.

One last thought, this being a public forum we are all here to see what the other has done to get the most from their car, as well as we are eager to find out newest idea/gadget, etc is, so we can do the same, and/or offer what we have done.
__________________
1977 240D turbo
Reply With Quote
  #170  
Old 12-31-2010, 10:09 PM
10mm MW
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 711
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47dodge View Post
I did find in a response to a post about adding a turbo to 240, that you listed what your then current adjustments were. You have rack limiter removed, and torque capsule adjusted. Have you since put the rack limiter back in?
I would like to, but it is such a pain in the but to do. I'll put it back in when I change the elements. I pulled it very early on, (before I really got into understanding each adjustments capability). That is why I can say it requires a vigilant eye on the EGT gauge, especially if you start making other adjustments. There is no way I would let anyone else drive my 240d with the limiter removed, it would be burned up for sure.

Honestly, if you think it runs better now, you are in for a real surprise if you decide to tweak the Torque Control and Max Speed settings. It will become a totally different car, but the EGTs must be monitored.

I give some insight into the typical settings that I change for a 616 in the e-mail. I am at a friends right now, so I will send you the info when I get home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 47dodge View Post
It seems to me the progression of tuning is leading to larger elements to allow more fuel sooner, as you have mentioned already. But then the adjustments of before will of course be incorrect. So rack limiters go back in, and somewhat milder adjustments otherwise, all because of the gain from larger elements.
Unfortunately the OEM elements are some of the smallest ones, and that is a big limiting factor. Larger elements would require a new tune up which would be ruffed in on a traditional bench and then fine tuned on the car.

Are you considering going to larger elements?


Quote:
Originally Posted by 47dodge View Post
Philosophical discussion, About ten years ago I decided time to do something else, so I started a boat shop, building wooden boats. yea I know strange jump from diesel mechanic. But sometimes you just have to follow your heart. I have found myself giving a lot of advice on boat building to many people as I have become better at it. Should I keep my mouth shut, so they will have to bring their boat project to me? perhaps, but perhaps not. So far I have found that I have kept at least a two year waiting list. It would not be possible for me to build/fix every boat. By giving freely (advice that is)the owners are able to fix or build what they may not otherwise have. However they will often come to me for specialized parts. So my advice it not always at a total loss economically. I have also found that it builds trust, and general good will. Each business owner needs to decide what their limit is as far as giving info.

One last thought, this being a public forum we are all here to see what the other has done to get the most from their car, as well as we are eager to find out newest idea/gadget, etc is, so we can do the same, and/or offer what we have done.
Good rebuttal. I am in agreement with you in regards to your situation, (plenty of work in reserve), however in my case, I am looking for work, and there are competitors, (for lack of a better term), that are a ahead of me but are having some issues. Is it in my best interest to post technical information that could solve their problem and be the go to guy? May be, may be not.

Don't get me wrong, if they want to hire me as a consultant, I would be happy to point them in right direction. I have talked with a Bosch shop locally quite a bit and they say my approach is very different to Bosch's, (there is only one way to do things, Bosch's way). As a result, custom tuning the Governor beyond a factory tune up can be challenging for them.

I also agree with you about the good will and such. I can't seem to be able to verbalize my hesitations.

Anyway, I am curious as to your thoughts on what I send you, if it is what you are looking for.
Reply With Quote
  #171  
Old 01-04-2011, 06:58 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Texafornia
Posts: 5,493
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomnik View Post
Alan,

the place in the Netherlands (DPP) is not dealing with MW, only M.
An other option is to find a M-Turbo governor and put it on the 5 cyl. M pump.
One set of 6 elements (7mm) for the M-pumps is already in Virginia available.
I still have not back my 5 cyl. M Turbo pump (with 7.5mm elements) so I can't report any results up to now.

Somehow I will manage to get a new set of 6.5mm MW elements to Peter free shipped, but I have to wait until they are produced.

Tom
This is the info I was going by

Hello

We only deal with oem Bosch parts because we are Bosch authorized.
We can get 7 mm for M and MW pumps.

Best regards

Arjan van der Kolk
Dutch Pump Performance



Van: A [mailto:truckee@yahoo.com]
Verzonden: vrijdag 29 oktober 2010 21:48
Aan: Arjan van der Kolk
Onderwerp: RE: 617 Benz 5 cyl MW? M pumps


Thank you for your reply--can you get -What brand and MM for which pumps--6.5 for the MW?

or the 7 for the M?

where are these elements origonating from? bosch? Floyd? Holly? Chinesium? are you near Amsterdam? Thanks again
Reply With Quote
  #172  
Old 01-05-2011, 01:30 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 348
I doubt that Arjan gets something for MWs in that diameter range.
The offered 7mm M are cheap, so he must have a very good source.
But Arjan installed my Floyd M 7.5 in a 606 Turbo IP for a member end of last year. And he did also the pre-set up with the electronic governor.
IIRC, they agreed to install and adjust the pump in the car this spring when the car is available.
I am surprised about the answer Arjan gave to you.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #173  
Old 12-16-2017, 02:56 PM
10mm MW
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 711
update

It has been a long time sense I have updated some of my threads with the things that I have managed to get done, so I thought I would take a minute and document them.

I finally had a chance to install the Big Mouth prechambers, advance the camshaft 10*, turn up and re-time the pump, and while it was out, I eliminated the High Speed Governor. I had to pull and re-index the pump because I was out of slot. When I put it back in, I set the start of injection at 28*. (This is possible because of the prechamber mods and the advanced camshaft)

As seen in the pic I do not use the drip method to set the start of injection timing. Instead, I made a gauge to measure the plunger height which is a lot more precise, (even when you factor in the factory build tolerance), and way more repeatable then the drip method.

The speck for the #1 prestroke from bottom is 2.15mm. The tolerance is 2.05mm / 2.25mm. I set the pump at 2.15mm at 28* . When I get a chance to play with it again, I want to bump it up to 29*.

While I had the pump out, I turned in the rack limiter all the way (I did not remove it), and turned in the Torque Control literally all the way, which is to say is a touch more than I normally do lol.. Turns out that I had to back it off a couple of turns so I could set the Vertical Throttle Stop so I would keep running. To compensate for the Torque Control adjustment, the Vertical Throttle Stop has to be backed off, and in this case it was in the manual shut down range, so when the throttle was at idle, the rack was being pulled back too far, and its range of movement was not enough for the idle to keep it running.

After backing off the Torque Control 2 turns all was well. I also put the ALDA back on as with the fueling turned up and the aggressive governor settings, it really made it drive nice and strong with no smoke as it was intended to.

Another pic shows the solid link I put in place of the High Speed Governor spring, so now beyond Idle, my foot controls the fueling and it now drives like a gas engine, pulling all the way as it revs up instead of flattening out and just making noise.

It is a totally different car now and the next step is a bigger turbo and a 10MM pump. I am very pleased with the set up.
Attached Thumbnails
MW IP Modification / Tuning-pump-pics-001-small-.jpg   MW IP Modification / Tuning-pump-pics-003-small-.jpg   MW IP Modification / Tuning-pump-pics-004-small-.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #174  
Old 12-21-2018, 09:58 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by OM616 View Post
It is a totally different car now


Be careful, you now have zero safety for limiting engine speed.
Reply With Quote
  #175  
Old 12-22-2018, 12:46 PM
10mm MW
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 711
Quote:
Originally Posted by OM617.952 View Post
Be careful, you now have zero safety for limiting engine speed.

LOL...
Reply With Quote
  #176  
Old 12-22-2018, 11:43 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 6
Please explain instead of just "LOL". Removing the governor means you literally have zero safety over maximum engine speed except by engine load and direct throttle manipulation. If something in the drive line fails at high power input (torque converter flex plate, transmission, flex disc, wheel traction, etc) you have a strong likelihood of catastrophic engine failure by overspeeding.
Reply With Quote
  #177  
Old 12-23-2018, 01:30 PM
10mm MW
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 711
Quote:
Originally Posted by OM617.952 View Post
Please explain instead of just "LOL". Removing the governor means you literally have zero safety over maximum engine speed except by engine load and direct throttle manipulation. If something in the drive line fails at high power input (torque converter flex plate, transmission, flex disc, wheel traction, etc) you have a strong likelihood of catastrophic engine failure by overspeeding.

Looks like I will have to have the mods look into if Lance is back..
Reply With Quote
  #178  
Old 12-26-2018, 12:46 PM
moon161's Avatar
Formerly of Car Hell
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 1,842
That seems like a valid question, without a governor a diesel is unstable, isn't it?
__________________
CC: NSA

All things are burning, know this and be released.

82 Benz 240 D, Kuan Yin
12 Ford Escape 4wd

You're four times
It's hard to
more likely to
concentrate on
have an accident
two things
when you're on
at the same time.
a cell phone.


www.kiva.org It's not like there's anything wrong with feeling good, is there?
Reply With Quote
  #179  
Old 12-26-2018, 04:06 PM
10mm MW
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 711
Quote:
Originally Posted by moon161 View Post
That seems like a valid question, without a governor a diesel is unstable, isn't it?
This is a super pump set up, not for mom's car lol.. Dieselmeken is setting the high speed govs to fully fuel up to 6 or7K, which means full cut off would be around 8 to 10K...

This is on my DD and I really like it. I plan on making a digital RPM activated vacuum control that will use the Shutoff Vacuum actuator to pull the rack back as a rev limiter at some point. That would allow true full fuel right to cut off.

Yes, if the throttle sticks when I shift, it will rev till I turn the key, the valves float or it blows. That is the trade off I made for it to run like a gasser..

Any pump or governor modifications should not be attempted by anyone who does not understand the risks. I figured the risks were obvious with this one lol.. Kinda like the Prechamber work that I have done on this engine.. "don't try this at home" lol
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page