Tinker,

I don't see any pin dimensions, and I think I have the one "full length" pin but expect it is slightly distorted and elongated by the process of removing it so using it as a template may be misleading.. I was hoping you just drive them until they bottom and let it go at that. If you know the stand-off dimension, please let me know what it is and where I measure it from, and what you used.

Thanks, Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

Jim.
Donīt fret,cause itīs all good.
Donīt take this to the bank,cause itīs from the top of my head,but i seem to remember that the minimum thickness that CAN be used is something like 1,6mm.cause after that the lifter cup will bottom out against the valve retainers shim recess.

Shims though...
Just look up an engine parts vendor.
These are guaranteed to hold shim sets for the citroen/peugeots,and these shims can be had down do 1.3mm.
"Saver" shims for real.

No...thereīs absolutely no "penalty" in any way by using thinner ones in any way.Nor is there any sort of difference in shim quality...
..and hereīs the beuty of it...
An entire BOX of citroen shims are about the price of 10 OEM merc ones. :-D

Racing,

Sorry for the delay, but we had a family tragedy - we found out our dog, Isar, a male Samoyed of 8 1/2 years had cancer and had to be euthanized. He was a wonderful companion and family member, and will be missed terribly but never forgotten.

So, we found a guy nearby who has a valve seat profiling machine and have elected to have all the seats fixed, and brought to nominal dimensions. One of our issues is we have no idea what this value actually is and where it is measured from. Again, you proved to be very accurate in your assessment of what can and should be done. We will be using some relatively soft or machinable material that work hardens to a surface hardness that is supposed to be much more wear resistant once the valve train is activated. The seat profiling machine is advertised to be accurate to single digit microns, not that that is required, but the net result is the seat should be near optimum in terms of location and dimensions.

We will also likely have new valves installed for the exhaust side. We could not find a single indication of wear on the existing ones along the stems. They are shiny, and have no wear marks. So, we will see what the height numbers come in at and if the valves are "too long," we will replace them. At this point the head will be essentially like new.

Parts are arriving daily and we will be looking to start reassembly as soon as the intake manifold assembly and block are cleaned. We do have a question about the oil pump and the oil pressure relief or regulating valve. We have two phenomena to explain, which are contradictory. First, we have all surmised the chain tensioner, which is powered by oil pressure was subjected to a high enough pressure to drive the tensioning rail into the chain so hard the chain wore through the rail. The theory to explain this oil pressure excursion is the the oil pressure relief valve is hanging up before the beveled face of the valve plunger moves far enough back to open the flow passage to the suction side of the pump and there is therefore no regulation of the discharge pressure. The next situation we have been dealing with is a low oil pressure reading on the gage in the car, which has been confirmed by connecting an external gage where the oil pressure sensor normally is hooked into the oil filter housing, once the oil is warm.

We have examined the plunger carefully, and, if we could send you some decent resolution photos we could review the visual marks on it. In general there is a polished side and a rough side. The plunger itself has a stepped outside diameter, the outer half of the axial length is slightly smaller in diameter than the front half of the plunger, and it has four small flats machined in it over the full axial length of the smaller OD. It is a kind of blackish color, like it came out of the heat treating operation and was never polished or cleaned. The forward half of the axial length at the full outside diameter is still blackish, but smoother and generally covered in small, visible marks that are not detectable with your fingernail. The polished surface is over about a quarter of the circumference or less, and covers one half of one of the angular cuts in the head is very smooth and significantly slipprier feeling. It is too hard to tell without an instrument for this purpose, whether the shiny, smooth surface is aluminum rubbed into the plunger or from wear that polished the black color off and left the smoother surface.

The bore in the front cover for the oil pressure relief valve plunger is also hardly smooth, but not because of wear. I can't feel the surface with my finger, however, visually it looks like a pretty rough machining job. At the intersection of the bore and the first relief valve discharge port there is a significant indication of contact. This cover has been chemically cleaned (solvents) by the machine shop working the head. The signs of wear don't include any real indications of raised metal or other signs of distress.

So, we plan to order another relief valve plunger and to fiind out how to lap the bore in the cover to eliminate any chances of pickup between the plunger and the walls of the plunger bore. The dowel impregnated with lapping compound sounds like a good way.

This should address the overpressure incident. It does not explain the low oil pressure readings we get with fresh oil the first time it reaches operating temperature (the gage drops to just over 2 bar at idle, but jumps to being pegged once you give it gas). The other two 16 valves we have start and the oil pressure pegs at 3 bar; the only time is doesn't stay pegged, regardless of oil temperature (up to 120 degrees C, the hottest we have seen it go one any of them) or idle speed (typically above 700 rpm, all the time, but around 900 rpm most of the time, or slightly higher), until you shut off the engine. Now once we get gasoline contamination the oil pressure drops below the 3 bar mark at any rpm under about 1,200 and then can go as low as 1 bar at the lower idle speeds. That it seems is a different problem and even though we don't have a cold or warm starting problem, we will change the injectors.

We are also wondering if the excessive oil pressure excursions that prompted the chain tensioner to push the chain through the chain tensioning rail may have also caused the little retaining plate for the oil pump guts to deflect and allow leakage from the discharge (high pressure) side of the pump to the suction (low pressure) side, which would then remain available for the oil pressure to decay across. I am trying to find a mechanism for the low oil pressure given the pressure relief valve remains stuck in the "won't relieve pressure" position as it would seem the pressure would remain high, not go low. Before we began to find problems with this car, including a massive oil leak at the chain tensioner which prompted us to change the tensioner, the oil pressure on this engine was identical to that already noted for the other two.

Which brings us to another question. We need a new chain tensioner and note there are two versions. The original one, which had no ratcheting feature (which this engine came with) and the replacement one with a ratcheting feature to maintain some minimum tension on the chain during starting. If you have an opinion and a source for the right chain tensioner it would be greatly appreciated. They are very costly over here.

Well, that is quite a request for information, so I hope we haven't worn our our welcome. Thanks for the help so far,

Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

Iīve also kept dogs my entire life,and it really digs a hole in your heart every time you have to let one of them go.
My current one is 5...so thereīs a lot of room left.

Oilpressure relief valve.
This is a design flaw if you ask me.
Putting a steel/stainless steel plunger into an aluminium housing is ASKING for trouble.It will gall,just a matter of time.
What needs to be done is to lap the plunger vs the bore and then clean the bore out.Not an issue really as you have it all apart,but this is an job that needs to be done to any 102/103 motor sometime down the line as many,many of them has met an early death due to sticking pressure relief valves.

The oilpressure issue is guaranteed to be more or less worn conrod bearings.
Over the yrs that the prime reason for the pressure going down the drain in my book.
However,as stated earlier the bearings ainīt an arm and a leg and nor is the new conrod bolts needed.
If and when you have the conrods off the crank to swap the bearings do the motor a favour and mic the crank throws for desaxiality and konicity as well a true dimensions.This is normally NOT an area of concern,but better safe than sorry.(When i build race engines i always build a "log book" amongst others of this reason.All measurments are written down for future reference)

Oilpump.
Read the focking manual as they say.
IOW,no reason what so ever to reinvent the wheel.Just check and spec it to OEM specs.The oilpump "lid" normaly has a little wear marks on it,and if need be it can be resurfaced to look like new.The pump is a well working unit,and one of the few areas that MIGHT become a concern si crank oscillations at higher revs and power.
IOW...the oiling systems of these engine,sans the pressure relief valve,is designed to work and work well-which it does.

I doubt that your wear pattern and how the chain plunger has almost opped out is a function of pressure.None the less,use the "ratchet" tensioner as this is the later and revised version of the part.

Main bearings and their saddles very very seldom present a problem,and the block and saddles are extremely sturdy in design.
Likewise with the deck surface.The times weīve had these engine deck cut itīs along the lines of 2-3/100 of a mm to true them.
IOW mainly to give the headgasket a new surface to work from.

Btw.
To resurface the oilpump lid just use a flat piece of glas covered with 6-800 grit emery cloth.Keep damp with sprayed water.
Glas is almost always true enough for a task like that.

To lap the pressure relief valve use common FINE valve lapping compound.and use a wooden stick up the behind of the valve.

Exhaust valves.
No need to get new ones if they old ones are up to spec.
I always start by measuring the spindle,and if the spindle is stretched more than 1/100 of a mm itīs heading for the scrap bin.
Next check is the valve seat area of the valve.These are often pitted beyond belief and needs to be resurfaced.
If so,make sure to grind the lifter end of the spindle down according to that to get approx right set height for valve clearance adjustment.

Hi Racing, This is Jim's son, and this 16v is more or less mine and I am doing most of the work.

Well, today we were going to pull the caps off however when we attempted to do so we realized that we have the late style bolts on the conrods. This confuses me a little simply because this car is a 1985 Euro (not an 86 as it says in the title) which makes me think it should have the early style conrods. So, do you know when they changed the conrods and or how else to tell? Could the pervious owner have checked the bearings and replaced the old bolts with the new style ones? or are the old connecting rods incompatible with the newsyle bolts?

We are somewhat reluctant to pull the bearings out because we don't really know whats going on in there.

Thanks,
Jim

__________________
1985 190E 2.3-16v Euro
1980 300GD SWB

Hi Jim!

No.The two variants of conrods and/or bolts donīt intermix.(Early rods also sports 24mm piston pin vs 22 for the later variety)

Frankly speaking i donīt know exactly when the swap was done(should be somewhere around 86),but i can tell you the following...

Only engines iīve ever seen with the early style rods are 185hp ones(10,5:1 engines),and then those were made before 86.

Could the engine have been swaped at some point down the line?
If your engine is a 9,7 or a 10,5 is very easy to determin.
The 10,5 will have the pistons protruding out of the engine block at TDC by 0,7mm and the 9,7 will be flush(zero deck height)
Ergo,the valve relief cuts of the 10,5 slugs are larger than the 9,7.

However.
I just recently tore an engine apart at the shop that is one of them brand new crate engines off of german e-bay,and it is the FIRST engine iīve ever taken apart that holds the late style rods with 22mm piston pin and 10.5 compression.(Protruding slugs)

Donīt fret taking the caps off the rods for a second.
As i say new conrod bolts are dirt cheap,and readily available.
Just order 8 of them and be done with it already.
Torq per spec upon reassy.
This way youīll be able to visualy inspect the condrod bearings,which at this point more or less is a "must do" seing that you guys reacted to low oilpressure at idle.
That issue resides either in worn conrod bearings and/or a stuck pressure relief valve.I guarantee.

Racing,

Got the connecting rod bearing caps off and rolled out the bearings. I am going to list the numbers found on the back of the bearing shell, and include a photo of each bearing half, as well as a shot of the connecting rod bearing cap bolts. We are going to install new connecting rod bearings, and have ordered the bolts. From all accounts we have a set of bearings made in October 1984, yet have the wimpy 10 mm, 12 point hex headed bolts. Let me know if the bearing part numbers mean anything to you:

On all four cylinders we have part number 102 3411 on the lower half, under the cap. The bearing half under the top half, under the connecting rod is 102 3410. There is pretty good evidence of smearing of the babbet, but relatively few score marks in the babbet. The crankshaft journals show no signs of distress, at least on the side visible.

I am enclosing photos of the bearings, the bearing cap, and the bearing cap bolt. The first photo is of the lower half bearing from cylinder 1, the second the upper half. Third is the lower half of cylinder number 2, fourth is the upper half. Fifth is the lower half of cylinder number 3, sixth the upper half. The sixth is the upper. The seventh photo is the lower half from cylinder number 4, and eigth is the upper half.

Ninth, tenth and eleventh are photos of the bearing cap from cylinder number 4, which was typical. There are some small markings on these item, but no visible part number.

Last is a photo of the bearing cap bolt. Based on what you see, what is the verdict on this engine assembly. The head is marked as being cast in December 1984, while the bearings are marked as being manufactured in October 1984. Sure seems like it should be the older more robust stuff, but doesn't appear to be based on the bolts.

Thanks, Jim

Attached Thumbnails

       

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

Racing here are the next four photos, seems I am limited to 5 per post.

(edit - had to add the photos)

Attached Thumbnails

       

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

Racing,

More photos of the bearing cap this time. A side view, a view from the bottom side, where the bolts bear on the cap, and the ID surface that supports the bearing itself. Wondering if it recognizable as the early type or the new type. By the way, one has a bit of a sliver of metal from drilling the bolt hole, still attached, inside the bolt hole. I am wondering if I should pull it out or leave it. Also attached is a photo of the bearing cap bolt we took out that is typical of all of them.

Thanks, Jim

Attached Thumbnails

       

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

Rods are "late" style-no argument-so feel good about ordering new bolts.
Conrod bearing halves are more worn than anything else,and the specs in them are from dirt.
Expect oilpressure to go up.

As noted also make sure to check the oilpressure relief valve while at it.

Donīt deburr anything while the parts are still in place.
Just donīt.
Leave as is,and torq new bolts to spec.

Did all beaing halves "snap" out?

Racing,

Not sure what you mean "snap out" as we pushed on one side and they "rolled" out. They did feel like they were slightly sprung in place. I saw no evidence of the bearing halves spinning inside the bearing caps. Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

Snap,Roll...same same...

Point being that the fact that you used a slight amount of force to get the halves out is correct.
This is whatīs known as bearing crush,and bearing crush is imperative for the bearing to survive.
The crush is the bearings only way of transporting the induced heat on into the conrod,and when for instance an engine pings over time the bearing will be pounded to a state where the crush goes away...and the bearing will fail shortly after(and as you note-spun bearing asf)
(Btw.The little "tab" on the bearing halves is NOT to keep the halves in place,but to register them against each other-and thatīs ALL the do)

No offense,but "reading" bearing halves over the net is hard.
You really need to be hands on there,but what iīve seen is what iīve stated above.

Smearing as you mention.
Point here is that within the engine one of the major things to adress that most people never realize is heat.
Thatīs the prime function of engine oil for instance-to transport heat.
If you think about it for a second..
On the 16V thereīs an oiltemp gauge.
Letīs say for the sake of argument that it shows a 100C deg.
Now,that measurement is taken at the oilfilterhousing.
What does that say as far as the temps at the reciprocating points?
Ie;at the conrod bearing for instance.
Nothing...
It takes a fairly trained eye to distinguish between smearing as a function of oil lubrication fall out and smearing due to to high bearing temps.These also interelate as can be concluded.Itīs a little easier to adress if you have the various bearing clearances in mind and that weīre talking hydraulics here.(A conrod bearing runs with a clearance somewhere around 5/100 of a mm(No matter the motor really)

This goes on within the entire motor,and some places needs to be pressure lubricated while others are splash.
None the less,it is to a major extent about heat.
Take a valve spring..how long do you think it would survive without the splash oil cooling it down?

Likewise.
As the bearing inevitably gets worn over time the clearances open up.
The more they do,the harder the pump asf needs to work to cope.
The more heat is induced into the system,and the more heat...

Engine oil is a touchy subject,and thereīs TONS of info floating around the net.Some correct...and most pure BS.
A good,high quality engine oil is essential to any loaded engines survival tho.That much is for sure.

We used to build restricted endurance racing engines at one point a number of yrs back.
Had failures that we really couldnīt relate as we did it all by the book.
Problems went away when we picked the correct oil for the task at hand-which in that case was either Castrol Formula RS or Motul 300V.
This is NOT to say that those oils would be the ultimate oils in a streeter,as the streeter has different working parameters.

Thanks for the information on the role of the fit between the bearing and the connecting rod bearing cap and the rod. I looked these bearing parts over carefully and it seems the number 3 cylinder parts look significantly better than the others, and the number 2 seem to have more smeared stuff and looks most distressed of them all. It even has a bit of babbet material smeared across the split line between the bearing halves.

Each half of each bearing has some blotchy looking discoloration as well, with the numbers 1 and 2 cylinder parts having the most blotching, and kind of not distributed evenly across the bearing in the axial direction. In the blotchy area the blotches are pretty evenly distributed circumferentially at one axial end. I am more familiar with tilting pad bearings on large compressors and steam and gas turbines. This stuff looks nothing like that.

The original owner changed the oil quite regularly, but used a standard oil. My first 190E 2.3-16, which my older son owns now, was delivered with a Castrol synthetic in it and I ran only Mobil 1 or Castrol's US synthetic offering, exclusively in that car. So when we got this one at about 120,000 miles we switched it over to synthetic oil, Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40.

Well, parts should be coming in this week and we will be cleaning the engine up to prepare for reassembly. When we get to the front cover, what RTV or other sealant do you recommend? And, I am imagining a nightmare getting the cover on with that oil pump suction strainer attached. It was not easy to get it off as it is bolted to a tab on the splash guard that hangs below the crank and the clearances there were tough to manage. Is there a specific sequence for this assembly to avoid wrestling this part around the tab?

As always, thanks for the help. Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

Anytime Jim.

Iīm not especially fond of silicone.(wimmins aside )
I normaly use stuff like Curil or Permatex.(Curil for gluing gaskets,and permatex as sealer.)

For those od occasions when silicone indeed is called for,make sure you let the stuff take a set before installing whatever is getting installed.
A LOT of people use the stuff wrong.Ie;inxs and they donīt let it "semi" dry before they install whatever cover or similar weīre talking about.