190E 3.0-12v Turbo - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

duxthe1 · #1 05-07-2009, 01:27 PM

While certainly not necessary, I still maintain it is a good idea. The 103 has the small pump and the slow spinning gear. The 104 has more oil demand and has the larger pump. The 603 has even more demand and has the larger volume pump and has the smaller (faster) oil pump gear. (the 603 also has a higher pressure relief valve spring) All of these engines have almost identical reciprocating assemblies, the differences are the consumers in the oil supply. There is a correlation between the oil demands of the engine and the oil pump output. Given that he will be looking right at the oil pump gear and chain while swapping out the rail, it would be an easy swap to switch out the oil pump drive gear and chain for more oil volume at lower engine speeds.

JayRash · #2 05-07-2009, 01:33 AM

Oh bad luck! your going thru the exact thing i went thru when i first boosted the MERC.
I blew a H.G first week driving the car, i was running tooo lean.
So u think ur HG blew out of age, cant it be due to the knock u had (or have pinned down that issue.)

Just check if the injector on that piston is flowing enough, i mean having a correct AFR doesn't deal out the fact that an injector out of six can be spraying much less than the others. Don't know really just thinking out loud here.

JayRash · #3 05-07-2009, 02:03 PM

on this i agree with Duxthe1, especially since the car has an SA system, ie has potential to make big hp numbers. I also advise on fitting at least an oil to water cooling element from an M103 W126 engine ( engines on those cars had this oil cooler) or at least check if the M104 cooler can fit. Even more, try locating the cooler from the 3.0-24 valve M104 as this is an oil to air unit that has the radiator located in the front bumper on the side.

just some ideas, but the oil cooler i say is a must have.

RBYCC · #4 05-07-2009, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayRash

on this i agree with Duxthe1, especially since the car has an SA system, ie has potential to make big hp numbers. I also advise on fitting at least an oil to water cooling element from an M103 W126 engine ( engines on those cars had this oil cooler) or at least check if the M104 cooler can fit. Even more, try locating the cooler from the 3.0-24 valve M104 as this is an oil to air unit that has the radiator located in the front bumper on the side.

just some ideas, but the oil cooler i say is a must have.

Jay

Disgree with you..it's overkill...

Sometimes when you fiddle too much you end up with that which you don't need...

I'm old school and making documented power with an unopened engine...

My water temp is as stock, and oil temp never a problem.

My turbos are water and oil cooled so the additional heat is easily absorbed by the stock systems.

No pinging, no overheating, perfect fuel maps at close to 10lbs boost.
Installed an oil catch can and so far not a drop of blow by which indicates pressure not excessive in the engine.

These cars were over enginereed and just about all the stock components can accept boost without change...including fuel pumps, fuel pressure regulator and injectors....

Any of the changes that are being suggested would not provide me anymore power or reliability...

But choice makes the world interesting...I can only go by what I've proven that makes power on a dyno !

Ed A.

JayRash · #5 05-07-2009, 03:22 PM

ed
I agree, but even the 36 with its mere 270 hp has an oil cooler. After all for an engine to make over 100hp/liter and be reliable under heavy use, it needs some basic tools. The cooler is no over kill IMO.
But i agree that the M103 is one over kill in engineering for the power it makes.
In my engine's rebuild i ended using my same pistons and rods
Just a new rings set. And the broken ring on piston one didnt scar the wall. All clearances were still in acceptable range despite the 230k miles + of tough usage.

RBYCC · #6 05-07-2009, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayRash

ed
I agree, but even the 36 with its mere 270 hp has an oil cooler. After all for an engine to make over 100hp/liter and be reliable under heavy use, it needs some basic tools. The cooler is no over kill IMO.
But i agree that the M103 is one over kill in engineering for the power it makes.
In my engine's rebuild i ended using my same pistons and rods
Just a new rings set. And the broken ring on piston one didnt scar the wall. All clearances were still in acceptable range despite the 230k miles + of tough usage.

Jay

More volume and cooler oil is great...
Point that I'm trying to make is that the M103 does not have the same internal oil delivery system as the M104 or the 603? diesel.
You'll end up not with anymore volume but more pressure and a quicker return to the oil pan.
If you wanted more pressure you could just change the spring in the M103 pump.
Either way you're not getting any volume due to the system restrictions...
Remember the oil that is important is just in the form of a very thin film...

An oil cooler is a different thing...I agree it's not overkill....common on cars that do heavy service in rough ambient conditions, same for a trans cooler.
My stock 180hp? W113 has an oil cooler mounted next to the radiator.

It's all about heat transfer and extraction...

To me the M103 is one of the most rugged engines that Merc has built...simplistic, strong and can make much power without breaking.
Stock compression is a natural for boost...
But we know that !!!

Ed

JayRash · #7 05-07-2009, 05:23 PM

true ed.
Ironic that my M110 has an oilcooler where as my M103 has absolutely no oil cooler for the engine.!

But still for me the M103 is probably the best engine ever made.
A close contender would be nissan's inline 6 in the old skyline GT-R.

Joreto · #8 05-08-2009, 02:23 AM

Thanks for the suggestions . I have an oil cooler left over from the 16v engine which I could mount but the problem is the the m103 oil filter console (is that what of call it ? ) doesn't have the input and output for the oil lines to the cooler. The 16v console was them but it's not compatible with the m103 block, maybe a console from a m104 might do the job. However so far I haven't seen very high oil temp in this engine, usually it stays just below 100C degs and climbs to 110 when I drive it very hard.

JayRash · #9 05-08-2009, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joreto

Thanks for the suggestions . I have an oil cooler left over from the 16v engine which I could mount but the problem is the the m103 oil filter console (is that what of call it ? ) doesn't have the input and output for the oil lines to the cooler. The 16v console was them but it's not compatible with the m103 block, maybe a console from a m104 might do the job. However so far I haven't seen very high oil temp in this engine, usually it stays just below 100C degs and climbs to 110 when I drive it very hard.

If 110 is all u see then you can do without an oil coooler, it sure is a plus to have though.

RBYCC · #10 05-08-2009, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joreto

Thanks for the suggestions . I have an oil cooler left over from the 16v engine which I could mount but the problem is the the m103 oil filter console (is that what of call it ? ) doesn't have the input and output for the oil lines to the cooler. The 16v console was them but it's not compatible with the m103 block, maybe a console from a m104 might do the job. However so far I haven't seen very high oil temp in this engine, usually it stays just below 100C degs and climbs to 110 when I drive it very hard.

I see about the same oil temps...that's why I feel the stock pump/delivery system will handle ( and in my case does ) a twin turbo install.

The M103 is an over engineered low RPM power band engine and if maintained doesn't exhibit problems with fluid flow and cooling.

duxthe1 · #11 05-08-2009, 01:44 PM

The 103 is a great engine but out of the box it isn't a great long term turbo foundation. I bought my first TE with the mosselman twin turbo kit (.5 bar)installed and the engine blown.

Teardown revealed numerous problems.... excessive rod bearing clearances, broken rings, deformed ring lands, damaged head gasket and head. The previous owner had spent 24K$ in repairs at our shop before selling me the car so it wasn't neglected to get in that shape.

If the 603 oil pump gear is installed it will not raise the peak oil pressure, just reach it sooner with more volume. The maximum pressure is controlled by the relief valve spring, which will remain the same regardless of how fast the pump spins.

JayRash · #12 05-08-2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duxthe1

The 103 is a great engine but out of the box it isn't a great long term turbo foundation. I bought my first TE with the mosselman twin turbo kit (.5 bar)installed and the engine blown.

Teardown revealed numerous problems.... excessive rod bearing clearances, broken rings, deformed ring lands, damaged head gasket and head. The previous owner had spent 24K$ in repairs at our shop before selling me the car so it wasn't neglected to get in that shape.

If the 603 oil pump gear is installed it will not raise the peak oil pressure, just reach it sooner with more volume. The maximum pressure is controlled by the relief valve spring, which will remain the same regardless of how fast the pump spins.

Its a discouraging post !!!!!, unfortunately it might be very true as my engine after 25k KM with the turbo kit suffered the following:
- 1st and 6th rod clearances were off
- piston 1 suffered broken ring.
- piston 1 has a very very slight deformation on the ring land.

But i have to admit that my car had very high mileage on it before the turbo kit. Then during the first few 1000 km with the kit, the engine ran lean at the top end with knock on every other full run.

even after ironing out almost all my issues with the alcohol kit my car still ran slightly lean from 3000 to 4000 rpm.
and i still believe that i used more water than i should have by mere mistake breaking my ring. Actually i also had a very weird issue, chlippo even got the chance to hear the knock my car used to have. It was an issue that i believe was due to excessive oil due to a blown turbo seal, and the knock would go away after a few part throttle runs (knock was only in when close to full throttle).

All this to say that if u properly tune the M103 turbo like Ed's setup and u will enjoy a reliable engine. Mess the tune abit and it will be expensive.
Duxthe1, I am leaning to the idea that the mosselman car had its enrichment system pack up, running lean and causing the damage. And all it needs is a few runs lean to have irreversible damage that will kill the engine eventually, even after sorting any fueling issues.

RBYCC · #13 05-08-2009, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duxthe1

The 103 is a great engine but out of the box it isn't a great long term turbo foundation. I bought my first TE with the mosselman twin turbo kit (.5 bar)installed and the engine blown.

Teardown revealed numerous problems.... excessive rod bearing clearances, broken rings, deformed ring lands, damaged head gasket and head. The previous owner had spent 24K$ in repairs at our shop before selling me the car so it wasn't neglected to get in that shape.

If the 603 oil pump gear is installed it will not raise the peak oil pressure, just reach it sooner with more volume. The maximum pressure is controlled by the relief valve spring, which will remain the same regardless of how fast the pump spins.

Neither Willy Mosselman or Turbotechnics was able to solve the AFR dilemma under boost.
Mosselman used a proprietary controller that still had detonation problems under boost.
Turbotechnics went in the correct direction with additional injectors but did not have the ability to control them effectively with their piggyback unit.
They both resorted to pulling timing.

In late 2006 when I purchased a NOS TT kit, I sought out the only individual who knows how to make power with the KE-Jetronic.
In fact Willy Mosselman is on record that this individual made his turbos go faster then he could ( Autoweek August 17, 1987 )

It took a great deal of collaboration to determine the best way to maintain the KE as stock but yet get optimum AFR under boost.
Took a lot of R&D, trial and error and hours on a dyno.

The end result is still working very strong after two years and making more power with every adjustment made on a dyno.
In fact I run about a 6 degree advance over stock.

To say the M103 isn't a long term turbo foundation based on a junk engine you purchased shows a lack of knowledge of how many twin turbo M103's are still in service.
Initial installs go back to 1986 and many of the TT"s are documented with close to 200K miles.

The engine doesn't need any more oil, or a larger throttle body or the EZL or KE control to be fiddled with, not even a change over to EFI.....it just needs to have a control that will assure an AFR of around 11.7 under boost..

I'm running 5 second 60's and low 13's-108 using a G-Tech 3 axis accelerometer....and the car passed state emissions with flying colors !!!

And it will go faster with my next project which is getting more power to the ground...running around 340HP / 390 torque at the crank....in essence I've so far doubled the published horsepower.

Chlippo · #14 05-08-2009, 06:21 PM

I will be turbocharging my M103 (with jayrash help and help and help) this summer hopefuly so... dont scare me guys

!
I stand by a fact that mercedes may have overengineered this engine and we all know that. But it wasnt overengineered to be turbocharged and handle 400 hp.
I dont know what is the limt that the M103 can handle but for sure more the setup is clean and well done, less the engine will suffer
The thing isnt by growing the hp and torque numbers...we need the car to run so we can have fun.
Great job on the car man! i really like your exhaust manifold! ive been trying to find one like this since 1 year

duxthe1 · #15 05-08-2009, 08:35 PM

We could argue the point back and forth ad infinitum. You're right that it doesn't need more oil to function. I don't insist that it does, but I do insist that it is a good idea. There are two ways to look at it.... you can increase the oil demand and hope that supply stays within acceptable limits. That will be fine.... right up to the point that it isn't. The second option is to implement the same engineering that Mercedes already put into its engines with higher oil demands by replacing two parts that are easily accessible during the upcoming repairs. Honestly if he weren't already pulling the timing cover I wouldn't have even suggested it as it is a good bit of labor to just go in after the gear alone. There is no more power to be had and probably there will be a little more parasitic pumping losses. But this isn't about 1/2 hp @6000RPM, it is about your margin of safety. The 103 is a well built motor as is and can take a lot of punishment. However when you start getting near to double it's rated output do you want to be on the low side of that margin of safety or on the high side?