i'm new to this forum and i see there are thousands of posts pertaining to many MB model to sift through. the search engine seems to give some hits but is only mildly useful. i want to know who has turbocharged their 190e 16v 2.3, 2.5, EVO I, or EVO II. if anyone has, i would like to post some specific questions. i've done a substantial amount of research already. i'm looking for someone who has experience actually installing and tuning a turbo for this engine.

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dew
86' 190e 2.3L 16v

I am in the process of installing one right now on a USA version 16v.

It will be a while before it is done because I am doing it for a customer/friend of mine during times at the shop when we have "spare/ idle" time.

We are also having alot of parts on his car jet-hot coated, powder painted and chromed,,,,,so we have parts of his car scattered across the country at the moment.

I will be updateing as I near completion, but I bet the car won't be back on the road until early to mid april.

I will also have pics of this car which has alreay won many show trophies,,,,,,it is also the car that is used in the Bekkers catalog on the page where the strutbraces are. there is a shot of the engine compartment with all the pretty red painted stuff and braided hoses everywhere.

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Alain
independant MBZ tech since 1981
http://www.motorsportlegendsks.com/

While not a turbo, I am just finishing up the installtion of a SLK supercharger in my US version 2.3-16. There are a couple of threads that go into the details. I will posting the solution to my throttle sticking problem soon. I have identified a design problem in the throttle body and will try a "fix" this week end.

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Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-speed, 95 E320 Wagon, 01 E320 Wagon, MGB, Boxster 'S', 190SL "Barn Find"

alian V. i assume you're a mechanic. i'm interested in the type of buildup you're doing on this 16v. i have planned a budget turbo buildup (if there is a such a thing) for my 16v. mosselman turbo kit, manual boost controller, BOV, water injection, fuel air and boost gauges, and performance ignition. are you guys doing something similar or something more high tech like an ECU swap and fuel system upgrade? i'm curious to know how much boost will be able to run with: 93 octane fuel, 9.7:1 comp ratio, stock fuel system with mosselman's plug-in fuel computer. also, do you have any suggestions for how to tune ignition timing and boost for the best result? my hypothesis is that my main limiting factor will be the stock fuel system. once i max out my injectors (still running stoich of course), how do i advance or retard the ignition timing for the best performance under boost conditions, yet keeping it from knocking?

any answers from any members will be appreciated.

thanks

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dew
86' 190e 2.3L 16v

Yes, I've been working on Mercedes for 20 years now, and am a third generation tech.

trust me, there is no such thing as a "budget" turbo system for a Mercedes,,,,,,,,, unless you have the skills/equipment to fabricate your own exhaust manifold.

The Mosselmann system alone came to about 5 grand with shipping to Kansas.
....and once you add a good BOV- a boost gauge, a rich/lean gauge, etc,etc,,,,,it adds up very quickly.

The big limiting factor on how much boost you can run is OCTANE.
In order to run more boost on street fuel, you only end up retarding the ign- which defeats the whole purpose of running more boost in the first place.

Of course things like water injection, and a very well ducted intercooler help.

The system I am installing will be set at the Mosselman recomended 5.5 psi initially, since the car still uses the stock CIS-E injection, and runs on pump/street fuel.

The best way to safely get as much hp as possible with the car is to spend some time on a chassis dyno with a wideband o2 sensor. This will be how we tune this project car when it is finished, before I hand the keys back to the owner.

You can control the timing on the 16v by installing a potentiometer in place of the factory resistor that is plugged in too the wiring harness. Basically the more resistance you have- the more your timing will be advanced.

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Alain
independant MBZ tech since 1981
http://www.motorsportlegendsks.com/

Alian V.

thanks for the reply. i know this will be a little costly. what i meant by budget turbo charging is doing it without replacing the top and bottom ends, ignition system, fuel system and without a 3D ECU that needs lots of dyno time to program.

even after a lot of research i guess i'm still not totally understanding turbo tuning. there is a lot of confusing information out on the web. i was told that as long as i don't run lean, i shouldn't see preignition or spark knock with increased boost. but thinking about it, that doesn't really make sense. maybe they were talking about running really rich to use fuel to cool the cylinder. so, since i'm stuck with my compression ratio (without a rebuild), with 93 octane fuel, and with the size intercooler the mosselman kit includes, my max boost without knock is pretty much predetermined (except for slight gains with water injection).

by "budget" i was also hoping to avoid expensive dyno time tuning the setup. other than dyno tuning, is there any "rule of thumb" way to determine what boost and ignition timing to use. will a hotter coil, performance ignition controller (crane, jacobs, MSD), and increased plug gap allow for a little more advance or is all that just hype from the "ignition" companies? i've been told by many people that with a forced induction engine it's a good idea to run one of these aftermarket ignitions because the stock ignition, even on the mighty 16v, isn't strong enough to ensure a complete burn.

since you seem to know what you're doing i'll fire off a few more questions. i understand the difference between spark knock and preignition. which one is the actual real danger on an engine like the 2.3 16v? my understanding is that installing a knock sensor can alert me to knocking during tuning but preignition isn't something that can be monitored until my engine just melts. my understanding of delaying ignition timing to suppress knock is basically like making the engine a lower compression engine, since the plug is firing well after the piston is traveling back down, so the ratio of cylinder displacement when the plug fires and when the cylinder is all the way down is lower than the ratio of the cylinder displacement at the top of the stroke and when the cylinder is all the way down. is this correct or am i way off base here? i figure that i should know how things work before i start messing with them.

that's probably enough for now.

thanks again. and as always, replies from anyone are welcome.

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dew
86' 190e 2.3L 16v

Jason ... I will take a stab at parts of your questions. My understanding is that pre-ignition is the igniting of the fuel charge by something other than the ignition spark. Ignition knock is an explosion of the fuel charge verses the slower burning of the fuel. Knock is caused by too high of a pressure within the combustion chamber. Knock is avoided by using a fuel with a high pressure to explode (higher octane), or by reducing the pressure in the combustion chamber. The maximum combustion pressure is reduced by either reducing the volume of gas in the fuel/air charge, or by delaying the ignition point so that as the charge burns while the piston is on the downward path (expanding the combustion chamber and reduces the pressure). Does that make sense?

On your ignition, my current feeling is that removing the R-16 resistor (thus providing about 6 degrees of additional advance) is sufficient for now. My thoughts are to change one thing at a time so that I can evaluate the differences and determine what additionally needs to re changed. I have not experienced any problems with the stock ignition so I am not currently planning to change it.

I have bought a "power module" that does the same thing as the Mosselman unit. I have installed an air fuel ratio gauge that I use to monitor the performance of injection system. Thus far, the standard injection system has maintained a "rich" exhaust under full power situations so I am not sure that I need a richer fuel charge. The "power module" is designed to "over drive" the EHA in the injector to provide additional fuel at high revs and throttle positions. I will try it after I get the supercharger itself lined out.

Hope that this helps.

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Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-speed, 95 E320 Wagon, 01 E320 Wagon, MGB, Boxster 'S', 190SL "Barn Find"

Jim,

thanks for the reply. i appreciate your explaination of spark knock and combustion. where is the R-16 resistor. i'm not adding the turbo for a while but i would like to get some increased performance by advancing the ignition timing while i'm still N/A. i never use less than 93 octane, since it's that or 89, so i would feel pretty good about a 6 degree advance.

that's good news about the stock fuel system. i didn't know it could handle that capacity.

thanks again

jason

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dew
86' 190e 2.3L 16v

Alain,
Are you turbo-charging Priest's 16V? I have seen his car before, I think its an amazing machine...be sure to let us know and take pictures while you are installing the turbo, as alot of 16V owners and 8v owners like me, would love to get a detailed view of the complexity of the installation if possible.
Thanks

Sean- Yes I am doing the turbo install on Priest's car.
His 16v is my old street cruiser that I sold him back when I built my cobra replica.
He has done alot of detail work to the car, and we are spending alot of time cleaning/polishing etc- everything in site while doing the installation.

Priest comes over about once a week and is taking pictures as we make progress. Once it is done I should have copies of all the pics to post on a site....... but bear with me on that one, because computors are not something I am very familiar with.

Jason- I had written a looong reply last nigh to all of your questions and with the big winter storm we had, my server had a problem & I lost the whole stinking thing.

Instead of spending another 30 minutes typing-pecking at the key board,,, I'll try to "summarize" my main points and add a couple of very informative links for you to check out.

1:the 16v bottom/top ends (longblock) are plenty strong enough for a "sane" amount of boost.
The 16v has a fully nitrided crank, beffier rods, full floating pins, etc,etc,,,,,and the cossworth designed head- are perfect candidates for a turbo install.

2yno time- again with a sane (5-8psi system) setup, you should not have to spend alot of time on the dyno tuning,,,,,,,but in order to fully have an optimized set up hp-wise and reliability wise,,,,,,,,I would spend at least a couple of hours at the dyno (with a wideband o2 sensor) checking to make sure you don't have any lean mixture problems,,,,,and maybe even trying a few "tricks" like activating the cold start valve at wide open throttle etc.

3:the stock compression ration is great for a street car with mild boost. Yes the cars in magazines that claim super high hp with a ton of boost look impressive on paper,,,,but they don't mention all of the time and doolars spent tuning to make it driveable.
Also high comp low boost (with a properly sized turbo)=less lag than the low comp high boost set ups.

4:the stock ign sys should be fine with a mild system. The only thing you really need to do is change to colder plugs.
the Mosselman kit is so complete that it even comes with the correct bosch plugs for the application.

If you do run an aftermarket system (like MSD etc) DO NOT WIDEN THE PLUG GAP, like the instructions say to do!!!!
You, can do this with a stronger system that is "normally aspirated", but in a boosted enviroment- if the gap is too wide,,,,you are in serious risk of actually "blowing the spark" out!

Also make sure and find out what type of wires are recommended with the ign sys you use. The stock mercedes wires are "solid core" construction and are not compatible with some of the aftermarket units.
I have found that most US made "perf" plug wires are of inferior quality.
The only aftermarket wires that I have been satisfied with are made by magnecore.

5:the key to a reliable street system with the stock injection is to keep boost levels "sane". The CIS-E is not exactly the best idea for a high boost set up,,,,,,although porsche and audi did use cis for their turbo motors. If you ever look at a 930 you will see that they used a fuel distributor from a v8 merceds with 2 outlets blocked off- to flow enough fuel. It worked, but most 930s have pretty bad lag too,,,,,especially when the owners make the mistake of getting a bigger turbo,,,,,,,,,,instead of first installing a free flowing exhaust system and larger intercooler.

6:the Mosselman system straight out of the box is very complete, and the manifold etc are of very good quality. I have been impressed enopugh with the parts to have contacted them and am waiting for the paperwork to become a Mosselman distributor here in Kansas.

One criticism, is that the instructions are OK for a pro,,,but too vague for a "do it yourself" installation.-in my opinion.
It does come with everything you need but there are no pics in the instructions, and you have to do things like cut and modify your low side a/c hose which is not covered in the instructions- although they send a piece of metal hose to do the mod with.

Also the intercooler is a very very tight fit- I actually had to take a die grinder and take some of the "plastic lip" off of the drivers side of the radiator. (not some thing I recommend an amatuer to try)

There are a couple of reasons why Priest's install is going to take some time.
The first being that he is nearly as picky as me and his car is a part time show car,,,,,so everything has to be "pretty".
We are also doing alot of other things at the same time like making new oil cooler lines so that they have a "replaceable hose- with a fitting at each end" much like what MBZ does on its auto trans cooling lines.
We are also not using the mosselman air filter assembly or ducting because it is just a black plastic housing.
Although it would work fine, I am going to make an "inlet pipe" out of mandrel bent steel and have it chromed with a cool looking cone shaped air filter on the end of it. (for cosmetics)

here is a link that has alot of great info without any BS, just click on their "tech page" to see a variety of subject covered:
http://www.sdsefi.com/index.html

and here is a page that talks about compression ratios vs boost levels that is mostly informative with just a little BS :
http://www.motorsportsdigest.com/forced2.htm

I hope this helps, now I have to go outside and try to "dig" my way out of the house- we got hit by a serious snow/sleet storm yesterday and last night.

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Alain
independant MBZ tech since 1981
http://www.motorsportlegendsks.com/

thanks for the info. those links are helpful.

my plans are for really no more than 8 psi, so things are good there.

i guess i'll have to bite the bullet and spend some money having someone tune my setup on a dyno. it doesn' t really make sense to spend all the money i've spent and will spend to be a cheap ass when it comes to tuning it all.

i'm going to have my buddy/mechanic help me with the install, though based on what another member, Clinton, wrote up, i don't think i should have any major problems.

what will you guys do with the oil cooler mounting. based on what people have told me, i don't think i like the way mosselman indicates the cooler should be mounted. my plan was to use an aftermarket oil cooler and position it in front of the right half of the radiator. i figure since i'm going to replace the cooler i might as well use one with a larger cooling capacity to keep my engine cooler under the new strains. i've removed my A/C including condenser so there seems to be ample room for an oil cooler between the radiator and the electric fan. as long as i do a good job with the fittings and hoses, can you see any problem with this type of setup?

what would you suggest as a good way to control activation of the cold start valve? maybe with a switch activated by full throttle? with the mosselman kit would the cold start valve be the only way to adjust fuel delivery? the mosselman fuel computer can't be adjusted or tuned can it?

do you think a manual boost controller like this one http://www.dawesdevices.com/boost.html would be good since i'll only be going from 5.5 psi from the wastegate to 7.5 or 8 psi?

do you think that a potentiometer in place of the R-16 resistor for ignition timing, a boost controller like the one above for boost, and cold start valve activator for fuel will be enough add on control to allow a professional to tune this buildup on a dyno?

thanks again for all your time.

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dew
86' 190e 2.3L 16v

A quick answer. The R-16 resistor for US cars is in the wiring harness on top if the inlet manifold. You should be able to feel a lump in the harness at about the #3 inlet riser. Remove the tape and you should find a small rectangle connector that can be unplugged. Just unplug it and take a drive. You will never replace it after feeling the difference.

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Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-speed, 95 E320 Wagon, 01 E320 Wagon, MGB, Boxster 'S', 190SL "Barn Find"

jim,

thanks. i'll get that pesky resistor out today. is the resistor there to delay timing because the reccomend 91 octane gas or what?

do you know if this ignition is adjustable by turning the distributor also, or is it only adjustable by the resistance at this point? since i will not be turbo charging this season, i would like to run as much advance as i can without knocking on 93 octane for the best N/A performance. if 6 deg is all i should advance then i'll be happy with that.

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dew
86' 190e 2.3L 16v

You will be happy with the six degrees. Turning the distributor will have no effect except posibly cross firing a plug. The ignition picks up its signal from a crank sensor on the flywheel. The purpose of the resistor is to adjust the advance for different fuels in different countries. I think the 750 ohm resistor is for unleaded regular. You will probably need to use 93 octane with the resistor out.

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Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-speed, 95 E320 Wagon, 01 E320 Wagon, MGB, Boxster 'S', 190SL "Barn Find"

jim,

is adjusting the resistance at this point the only way to adjust ignition timing? i think this will give me enough adjustability; i'm just trying to learn more about the ignition system on this car. do you have any links that explain this system by chance. i've got complete diagrams and explainations of the fuel system but almost nothing on the ignition. do you have any idea how much retard would be had with 0 ohms at this point. i'm interested to know how much adjustability i will have if i install a potentiometer.

thanks

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dew
86' 190e 2.3L 16v