Too busy for re-election campaign... - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

KirkVining · #31 12-08-2004, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 90free400e

wmd's aside, do you still think the war is pointless? Is freeing people under an inhumane dictator pointless? I wonder if thats what people in the us thought back in 1938 when hitler was just starting to gain power. I dought many people thought he would actually murder 6 million jews.

My personal belief is that if we walked out of there tomorrow the whole place would be better off. The only reason we are there is to keep the Iraqis from doing what they want to do - split into three states, It is our insistance that they be a country that is at the root of all their misery. Since 1920 the US and Britain have supported whatever government, no matter how thugish, that can keep Iraq together. It is a country that simply does not make any sense, like most of the basket case countries the British created after WWI, countries created for geopolitical and economic exploitation purposes, not for the purposes of the people who live in those countries. Look at the globe - Sudan, two distinct countries that has been at genocidal war with itself forever. Afghanistan, a klepto-narco state that has been in a permenant state of civil war - made up of three ethnic groups that have massacring each other for centuries, Yugoslavia- where peace finally came when the states were allowed to go there seperate ways. The same thing would happen in Iraq - the Kurds and Shiites already have functioning governments, and the Sunnis would if we left. The people responsible for all the bloodshed and murder there is us, and just like Vietnam, it will stop if we simply leave.

TwitchKitty · #32 12-08-2004, 12:34 AM

They wouldn't last as three states, if they ever got there. The Koran says that it will all be one state that encompasses all of the Moslem world, or something like that. With no outsiders, Israel would have to go.

TwitchKitty · #33 12-08-2004, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shane

"But he tried to kill my daddy!" Favorite line of mine said by reigning POTUS. Hitler analogy is extreme but relevent. A man like Bush who evaded genuine military duty, failed consistently in business, is an alcholic and recovered dope fiend, and was saved by a televangelist preacher, now runs the country that granted him extra powerful powers to deal with the creators of 911. With that power this guy goes to war under proven and false reasons. Hell the UN did not even back him. All this for an attempt on daddy. Now if this doesn't sound ruthless I don't know what does.

You were doing good until the daddy thing. You don't really believe that do you? Do you think that one man or one family in this country has that much control? Do you believe a singular motive could take them this far?

shane · #34 12-08-2004, 01:00 AM

Yes I do in a nutshell. There were other monetary factors involved, from Halliburton, to terrorist paranoia, but as a whole I do believe the little nutcase W. would do it.

mikemover · #35 12-08-2004, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Kirk,
You insist on making it sound like that imbecile Bush was able to hoodwink the entire congress into thinking there were WMDs when EVERYONE knew there were no WMDs. Doesn't each member of Congress who voted for the war share in the blame? Or is that only for republicans? Doesn't Congress have their own sources of information? Seems to me, I remember democrats falling all over themselves to vote to approve the war--they didn't want Bush and the republicans to get all the credit.
If Bush is the dummy you proclaim him to be, how was he able to make the democrats follow him. He can't be both the dummy AND the evil genius.
Of course, if getting back into power is the goal, then consistency of approach is not a requirement---just keep on blaming the republicans--in a while you will be right.

You're exactly right.

At one moment, they want to portray Bush as a moron, nutcase, drunkard, clueless cowboy, etc....

Then in the next moment, they accuse him of being some sort of "grand conspirator" and a "master propagandist".

Sorry, fellas....You can't have your cake and eat it too!.... It is quite impossible that one person could be BOTH of these things at once. You're gonna' have to make up your minds, and stick with one story or the other.

Mike

KirkVining · #36 12-08-2004, 01:25 AM

That is just silly.

mikemover · #37 12-08-2004, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirkVining

That is just silly.

Silly? I call the bluff of all the duplicitous Bush-haters, and that's the best you can do? ......silly?.......

Mike

KirkVining · #38 12-08-2004, 01:54 AM

Bush surrounds himself with people that help him get over his intellectual shortcomings. These same people also formulate policies for him. Bush's job is to put an awshucks- just folks veneer over the whole thing. It is a brillant propaganda operation that has worked for Bush since his days in Texas politics. Unfortunately, the people calling the shots in the background are the greediest, most corrupt sons of *****es on the planet, and they get a good laugh out of duping people like you into thinking they actually have morals, never mind duping you into believing they actually have your interests at heart, which has them rolling in the aisles.

mikemover · #39 12-08-2004, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirkVining

Bush surrounds himself with people that help him get over his intellectual shortcomings. These same people also formulate policies for him. Bush's job is to put an awshucks- just folks veneer over the whole thing. It is a brillant propaganda operation that has worked for Bush since his days in Texas politics. Unfortunately, the people calling the shots in the background are the greediest, most corrupt sons of *****es on the planet, and they get a good laugh out of duping people like you into thinking they actually have morals, never mind duping you into believing they actually have your interests at heart, which has them rolling in the aisles.

Yes, he does surround himself with intelligent folks who are more adept at their particular specialties and jobs than he is.....which is a well-known trait of any wise leader, or smart businessmen, etc.... If you have a job that needs doing, why hire someone who is not going to do it at least as well as you could? Always "hire up"....Find someone BETTER at it than you are....Otherwise it's pointless, and you might as well do it yourself.

Even in THIS post, you bolster my accusations of your Bush-hating duplicity: First you mention his "intellectual shortcomings", and then only two sentences later, you describe his "brilliant propaganda operation"! Can you not see the contradiction in what you're saying?

Anyway.......

To address your second point....I have no illusions that ANY politician is actually "moral" or sincerely concerned about MY best interests. It is the nature of politics. They are what they are. When voting, I just try to pick and choose the ones whose agendas happen to suit MY personal interests, as well as the protection of our nation, so that I may remain free to CONTINUE pursuing my inerests, and so that everyone else can do so as well.

Mike

Zeitgeist · #40 12-08-2004, 02:29 AM

L.i.n.o.

KirkVining · #41 12-08-2004, 02:30 AM

Bush's brillant propaganda operation was not created by him - it is the creation of Karl Rove. Bush was an inept candidate who couldn't win an election to dog catcher until Rove came along. You should read a book called "Bush's Brain". Bush doesn't have one, so he hired up. Bush is a charming ne'r do well who never really excelled at anything. Rove is a nasty little man who is a political genius. Together, they make a whole human being, minus the heart, which neither one of the gentlemen have.

mikemover · #42 12-08-2004, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirkVining

Bush's brillant propaganda operation was not created by him - it is the creation of Karl Rove. Bush was an inept candidate who couldn't win an election to dog catcher until Rove came along. You should read a book called "Bush's Brain". Bush doesn't have one, so he hired up. Bush is a charming ne'r do well who never really excelled at anything. Rove is a nasty little man who is a political genius. Together, they make a whole human being, minus the heart, which neither one of the bastards have.

Hey, I'm not claiming Bush is an "Einstein".....or even close.....I'm just pointing out the contradictory nature of these two angles of attack that are often simultaneously used by his critics.

But...if we go with your version of the story, then....by your own admission, he was smart enough to "hire-up".....and look where it got him! Hmmm....Governor of Texas......two-terms as President of the United States...Not too shabby....

Mike

MS Fowler · #43 12-08-2004, 05:43 AM

At this point, there are only three options, as I see it; There may be some tweaking on these points but basically its these 3.
1) Cut and run---just leave. Declare victory and leave. From the point of view of US prestige around the world, I think this is an absolute loser. No one will believe us when we say how determined we are.
2) Finish the job, then leave. The Bush plan. The tough part is determing when its OK to leave. Its that judgment thing again---When is Iraq stable enough to justify the cost to that point and allow us to leave with most of our prestige intact.
3) Never leave. the Imperial US. We just stay and establish bases in each country as we conquer it. Use ancient Rome as the model. Very distasteful to me, personally.

By the way, not everyone who supported the president in the recent election is pleased with war--but could not support a person like Kerry.

Botnst · #44 12-08-2004, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirkVining

Bush surrounds himself with people that help him get over his intellectual shortcomings. These same people also formulate policies for him. Bush's job is to put an awshucks- just folks veneer over the whole thing. It is a brillant propaganda operation that has worked for Bush since his days in Texas politics. Unfortunately, the people calling the shots in the background are the greediest, most corrupt sons of *****es on the planet, and they get a good laugh out of duping people like you into thinking they actually have morals, never mind duping you into believing they actually have your interests at heart, which has them rolling in the aisles.

Reminds me of what the geniuses used to say about Reagan. Remember when he was 'simplistic' and all those other terms of intellectual condescension? It shouldn't take long to find all the clever Op/Ed pieces by those luminaries of the left. In twenty years, they forget what they said of him and recall how he reached across the aisle. Riiight.

#45 12-08-2004, 08:39 AM

Elected to President of the United States at 54, re-elected @ 58 Yale Grad, fighter pilot.

Yea he's an idiot, but lets not tell him until '08 Ok guys.