prayer in school, liberal bull? you jest..

Rant alert! :D

watch the news.....colorado seems to be wacko teacher central. 2 in the last year....

How much of the Bennish story have you really heard? I'd love to get your take on it - sure to be a riot.

I hear his entire recorded rant....that had ZERO place in a school classroom. Plain and simple...the man should be fired for failure to do his job. Which is teach Geography. Not rant about his perverted delusions.

You didn't hear the entire anything. You heard no more than 21 (maybe 23 (I suspect you actually heard a lot less, even, than that)) minutes of a 51 (maybe 53) minute lecture. According to the student's classmates, the recording you heard had been carefully cherry-picked in advance of being shopped to various whacko right-wing media outlets.

That was Kerry's second tour. Did he fake multiple wounds to get out? Maybe so. If I'd examined the remains of barefoot, unarmed peasants that I'd just ventilated -- terminated with extreme prejudice -- with a boat mounted 50 caliber, I might pull some $h!t to get out of that insane hell-hole myself.

Bush admitted on a televised interview that "he worked it out with the guard" to leave early and attend business school at Harvard. Nam vets have offered big bucks to anyone who can prove that he attended to guard duty in Alabama. Nobody's taken them up on it. Many Alabama guard vets who are Repos have said they'd like to say they saw him, but didn't. I have to admire their honesty.

F*** the 60 Minutes document. The truth about Bush is damning enough w/o it. The guy was in favor of the war but let poor boys fight it. He doesn't understand the lessons of the war -- he's determined to do in Iraq what he thinks should have been done in Vietnam. He's wrong on both counts.

Get over it Bone. You're off base on this one. There are good Republicans in our land. Bush ain't one of them.

The Koran accusations were proven false how? Based on what we know about US serviceman contempt for Islam and the beyond doubt Booo$h!t at Abu Gharib, ain't nothing been proven false. Where there's smoke there's fire.

I read one of the horrible things he said had something along the lines of "Israel was founded as a state because it committed acts of terrorism." That is a historical fact. From the beginning, Zionists pushed natives off of their land using varying tactics, few of them legal or moral, and destroyed and massacred many, many villages along the way. How else do you think they got the land they currently occupy?

Seek ye some learning, head in sand boy.

Yep.

...But just wait 'till our buddy Zeit comes along again, and tells you that you're really not what you think you are, and then you'll REALLY be confused! LOL. :D :P

Mike

I'm always hesitant to jump to bonehead's defense, but....

Concerning this issue...it appears that your head is the one that is stuck.... in the deep, deep sand of revisionist history concerning Israel.

Haven't we gone over this one before?

Mike

All it takes is twelve little steps...
 

Mike, the terrorist tactics employed by the early Zionists is an indisputably historical fact, no one could possibly deny. Your emerging pro-terrorist stance is illuminating, and quite alarming.

Interesting article:

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/13/D8GAVUF01.html

Just replace "jew" with "palestinian" since the nouveau interpretation is that apparently its the palestinians land that was taken.

Yes, but what happened BEFORE that?..... What so enraged the "Zionists" that they resorted to such measures? That's something that Israel-haters love to fail to mention.....

Whatever.

I've never used the "ignore" feature, even for the likes of KV or bonehead... but some days, you tempt me.

Mike

Lemme see, you've actually studied the history of Israel? Anyone who would try to claim that the state was not built on a foundation of ethnic cleansing and terrorism is in some serious, serious denial.

There were Jews in Palestine before the Zionist thing got going. I understand many of them didn't approve of it. Thought it would spell trouble. Jeez, what a bunch of losers, huh?

One thing that happened before that was the arrival of boatloads of Zionists with deeds to land in the soon to be state of Israel. The land had been "bought" from absentee landlords somewhere, Turkey likely as not, who had never lived on or worked the land they "owned." At some point in the 19th century, bottoom feeders in the Ottoman Empire drew up maps of Palesinian land and apportioned plots to various fellows who had a favor or two coming. Zionists approached these stalwart fellows and asked if they'd like to make some money off of this land.

Imagine the surprise of Palestinian farmers whose families had lived on that land for God only knows how many generations when Zionists arrived and said, "Hi, we just bought your land." They had no recollection of selling it to anyone and did not take kindly to being evicted at the point of a gun.

I submit that this was a bad foot to start out on. I have no doubt that atrocities were committed on both sides in subsequent years. If I'd been a Jew living there, I've no doubt I'd have taken up arms. Ditto if I'd been a Palestinian.

My point is, this nonsense of painting Zionists as the long suffering saints and Palestinians as the scum of the earth is not accurate and will not help us navigate our way out of this imbroglio.

Zz, how could you?! Apologize at once!

Yes, actually.

Yes, there were some questionable tactics going on during the formation of the current Jewish state of Israel, and of course I don't approve of such actions....

Although I DO believe these events have been exaggerated and dramatized, in some cases to GREAT extent, by many of Israel's detractors and enemies in the Arab world.

Regardless, the Jewish people were there LONG before any "Zionist" movement, and long before the "Palestinians".....

Almost EVERY neighboring Arabic nation has tried to "cleanse" the area of Jews, on at LEAST one occasion, in some cases more than once. The Palestinians and their supporters can hardly claim any moral high ground on the subject of ethnic cleansing.

Oh, hell... I don't have the patience to rehash all of this right now... We exhausted this topic pretty thoroughly on another thread a few weeks ago...

Just search the archives for it, and save us all a lot of time and typing.

Mike

Believe me, I want nothing from Zeit. Least of all an "apology". :rolleyes:

None was asked for, and none is expected.

Mike

You are certain Jews predate Palestinians how?

From what I understand, the heyday of the Jewish Kingdom in the holy lands had a pretty brief rein and run. And uh, if you'll open your bible to the old testament, you'll find that they hacked there way into it spilling mega gallons of blood on the way.

Of course, that is sorta the norm in human history, maybe not the everyday norm, but it damnsure happened, over and over.

The Jewish holy men said God promised them the land. Well duhhh. I wonder what the Arab holy men said about the same land?

Your opinions here seem unfailingly slanted to the Jewish version of events -- both recent and long past. I generally like Jews better than Arabs myself. But that's beside the point. I didn't sign on to helping the Jews fight this fight and the idea that we should devote $Billions and our international reputation to this ham-handedly executed bad idea is ludicrous.

Your patience is indeed lacking. In examination of the historical record, that is.

Uh, post #63.

One of the seminal parts of the article:

"The original settlement, which dates from the 10th and 9th centuries B.C., is also a new discovery"

Yeah, and I'll guarantee you that Native Amercians lived on your land or nearby long before any of your ancestors trod upon that soil. So what? Should we finance an Exodus of Native Ams to your backyard because God promised them that land?

For all sorts of reasons, the Jews, for the most part, left the holy lands. The people who were there imediately before Zionism got up and running had been there continuously for some time.

It was an awkward way to introduce themselves to their new neighbors. Jews for Justice in the Middle East have documented many, many items in the historical record that indicate Zionists wished to simply export the Palestinians somewhere, anywhere, else. Just sweep that debris aside.

It was a recipe for disaster, and whatayouknow. Disaster is what we got.

Thank you.

Mike

OK, MikeMover, lion of historical veracity, who was living on that land in the 12th and 13th century BC? Who was living on your land, on your turf, in 1518?

The Jews lived there long ago. Stop the presses!! This changes everything!! My God, how could I have been so blind?!

A Cliff's Notes-style highlighting of Israel's history:

1. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E, the Jews had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4.The only Arab domination since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 hundred times in Bible. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish refugees: Arabs were not driven out of their homes. Following the UN decision on Partition in 1948, the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders, promising to purge the land of Jews. They argued that an "Arab presence" would only get in the way of the planned devastation. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees absorbed by Israel from Arab countries is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples'lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank and autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied their police and security forces with weapons.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Jewish grave markers were used to build public urinals in occupied Jerusalem. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The U.N. record on Israel and the Arabs of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel -- notwithstanding the fact that the Arabs refused to participate in the 15 nation United Nations Commission of Palestine which recommended partition in 1948 and sought immediately to undo its work by force of arms.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

18. The U.N. was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians between 1948 and 1967.

19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives between 1948 and 1967.

20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall between 1948 and 1967.

So the romans got rid of the Jews, the Romans got rid of themselves (with the help of various goths and visigoths et al), the Jews came back and got rid of the Palestinians.

Likewise, various tribes of indigenous Indians replaced other tribes of indigenous Indians here on this continent then we replaced them. (you gotta let go of that noble savage mindset you have, it's so nineteenth century)

It's the circle of life, hakuna-matata and all that.

Get over it.

For more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

Take special notice of the "Historical Roots" section.

Mike

Most of those "all sorts of reasons" you so easily glossed over were attacks and forced evictions, carried out by neighboring Arab states, and the Roman Empire (who also originated the term "Palestinian"... There was NEVER a "Palestine"... No Palestinian nation, no Palestinian language, no Palestinian....anything. They are Arabic.)

Mike

Hmmmmmm, as I remeber wasn't the old Roman Syria Palestine part of modern day Jordan? Why don't those damned Jordanians give those poor Palestinians back their homeland? Fascists!

Oh yeah, Egypt too!

American Indians, most likely. From whom I am partially descended.

If the rightful owners were to show up, I wouldn't have much of an argument, eh?

Unfortunately, it is historically documented that pretty much all American Indian tribes harbored no concept of "private property"--they lived either communally or nomadically--so there WERE no previous "owners" of my property.

Although interesting, none of this changes any of my points about the Israeli/Palestinian issue.

Mike

Yeah the Jews got rid of the Palestinians. So why are we giving them 4 or 5 $billion a year? Let them do it on their own. Why drag my goyish arse into it?

Oh and uh, by the way, the Palestinians are now trying to get rid of the Jews. This is apparently the only part of this saga that bothers you.

Exactly.

Jordan, Egypt, and a couple of other surrounding nations hold far, FAR more square mileage of the lands that the Palestinians claim as their own.

Why are they not sending suicide bombers over the border into those countries, and demanding the return of "their lands"?....

...Because it's not about the worthless f***ing land. It's about their hatred of the Jewish people.

Mike

This point I largely agree with.

I mostly agree with Israel's side of the argument. But I also agree that WE should not be financing their argument.

Mike

Well, actually the Palestinians did break down a wall a few weeks back that bordered onto Egypt from the Gaza. Egypt met them with lots of tanks and guns. Evidently the Egyptians don't want to help out their Islam brothers. Didn't see a whole lot on the news about that.

You're right, it's about the Jews not the land.

So who were the Philistines spoken of in the bible?

Going back to your earlier historical narrative, are you saying that the Jewish presence in Palestine prior to Zionism was larger than the Arab presence? I kinda doubt it.

And the date of birth of Mohammed has about nothing to do with this.

About as much as does the land. It's about KILLING ALL THE JEWS.

More nonsense. Yes they hate the Jews. That hatred was not summoned from a magic hat.

Your earlier remark about the Arabs that voluntarily left is a selective bit of history. Yes it happened. After the Jewish sacking of numerous villages.

Gosh, if only that wicked witch hadn't cast a spell on all Arabs to hate the Jews and to want to kill them all, things would be so much nicer.

Other Arabs did not push Palestinians off of their land. If they had, I reckon the Palestinian crowd would hate them instead.

There is no one without dirty laundry in this situation, and I have never claimed otherwise.

But the Jews predate the "Palestinians" in that region. Period.

Mike

Yea, they would. Too bad she also wrote it in the charter of Hamas and seems to be whispering it to Ahmadinajad daily.

BTW, how many innocent Iranians did the Israelis evict. What's their motive for hating them?

You are right.

The Palestinians, along with Jordan, Egypt, Iran, and others, surrounded and attacked Israel, in an attempt to remove and/or eliminate the Jewish people. War ensued.

And they lost.

Sore losers, they are.

Egypt and the other surrounding nations don't want the Palestinians to migrate to their countries either, because they have shown themselves to be nothing but trouble.

Mike

That is a sorta good point. Not sure why the Iranian hatred runs so deep. I think part of it has to do with the Jewish participation, along with us, in training the Shah's secret police, Savak -- make that the Shahs viciously cruel, hated and despised secret police.

I imagine that made it appear that Jews had designs on manipulating Iran in ways that might benefit Israel.

Imagine if Venezuela had done something like that to us when we were down. We've been the big dog for so long, we can't even imagine what it would be like.

You are truly hopeless. The Iranians adored Hitler because he tried to kill all the jews, well before the Shah. I heard that first from a 4th grade girl.

Nothing like being the epitome of the signature at the bottom of your page.

I don't want to take a side in this. I want to imagine what is going on in the heads of all involved.

Perhaps Arabs don't think they've lost yet. Maybe they think they lost one battle. You speak as if your opinions are set in stone.

Arable land and water is in short supply in that region. Look at how Houston is sorta reeling from the problems of Katrian refugees, expats, whatever they want to be called. Unemployment is high all over the Arab world.

Not sure why Arabs hate Jews so much. Perhaps they believed that Israel was only the first bit of real estate the Jews coveted. I don't see much willingness for present day Zionists to stop acquiring new territory. They let go of Gaza because it was not a cost effective acquisition, though I understand more and more Jews don't want their sons to be out defending far flung settlements.

Thank you so much. Part of the reason Iranians gravitated to Hitler was because Hitler was battling England and Russia, that would be the England and Russia who had been struggling with each other to see who would be the main exploiter of Iran until they settled on a pact with each other that gave Russia access to the northern regions and the Brits control of the south, which included the oil fields the Brits discovered, leaving Iran a sliver in the middle so they wouldn't complain too much. They announced this arrangement to Iran, w/o prior consultation.

Again, you look at a small part and claim it is the whole.

BTW Pergo mon, there is no net like delusion.

PS: Russian and British exploitation of Iran way predated Hitler. Shah Reza Pahlavi (sp) was just the most recent shah. His father was more popular than he but the crowd before his father were, AFAI can tell, mostly decadent, immoral bloodsuckers, ironically empowered by the Brits in exchange for plundering rights. Reza mon rekindled that spirit. Maybe you need to expand your sources and draw on more than "a 4th grade girl."

If so, then they're not doing so well, because Israel has NOT grown, and shows no signs of doing so. It is STILL only about the size of New Jersey.

I really don't understand where some people get the ridiculous idea that Israel is aggressively "expansionist" or "imperialist".

Mike

Ouch. A cheap shot, but a good one! ;)

Mike

I imagine the new fence/wall, which strayed outside of formerly agreed upon lines, to annex some of the choice bits of land in the west bank, has something to do with it.

Look at the whole picture. We are Israel's steadfast ally and vicey versa, when they're not trying to spy on us, that is. Oh but hey, we slapped their hand good for that and made them wait a whole week before we gave them the next payment on their $4 billion a year.

Anyway, Iraq has the kind of water most Arab states only dream about. Here we are, virtually laying claim to it. Oh I forgot, we're trying to help them become free.

The very existance of Israel is owed to imperialism.

From m-w.com:

Imperialism
2 : the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas; broadly : the extension or imposition of power, authority, or influence.

Apologists for Zionism seem to think if it happened 50 or 100 years ago it is a fait accompli. Would that it were that easy. I think the Arabs would be much better off if they looked up to the Jews as teachers and partners, and learned what they could to advance themselves. The Arabs don't care or know what I think.

A poor workman blames his tools. Israel's execution of this whole affair haas not been deft. The fault for this mess does not rest solely on Arab or Iranian heads. The belief that it does hinders true progress, IMH,HO.

I love it when my adversaries do high fives w/ each other about how they've put me in my place. Premature celebration, a bit like the more common premature thingy.