Relax. I just thought it was funny.

Mike

Oh, yeah... What did that gain them?... A few square miles of worthless sand? At that astounding rate of expansion, it's going to take them a few thousand years to even grow to the size of...... say... North Carolina! :rolleyes:

It's merely a "buffer zone" to help keep the bombers and grenade launchers at bay, and I can hardly blame them for wanting to establish such a thing.

Actually, Israel has ESCAPED the Imperialist reach of pretty much ALL of its neighbors at least once. In some cases more than once.



These points I can agree with.

Mike

Mike, you're no dummy but you put blinders on over this issue. A few miles of worthless sand? Is that why the fence snakes such a circuitous course, at a cost of mega $$ per mile? They're dividing up Palestinian villages and keeping Arab farmers away from their fields for more sand?

I've not been on the scene, but I've read more than once that the fence is annexing choice bits w/ water. Apparently they figure they're not going to do this again for a while so let's grab the good stuff now.

Well I hope Pergo mon thinks post #96 was funny, wherein I brilliantly pointed out that there was a lot more going on with Iran's flirtation with Hitler than mere hatred of Jews, thereby utterly leaving his premise in smoldering ruins.

That the Jews lived in the holy lands in the 9th and 10th centuries is news? Moses is reckoned to have lived in the 12th or 13th century, I believe. If he led them there, they must have been there before the 9th or 10th. The land was not deserted when Moses and crew arrived. That would explain the warfare.

MikeMover stated a while back that the land is not Palestinian land, or maybe he said it is Israel's, I forget.

Claiming that one group or the other owns it because of violent takeovers and occupation of territory 3000+ years ago is just a bit thin. Where did the Jews live before escaping from the Egyptians?

If you buy the Jacob and Esau story, Arabs and Jews have been around exactly the same length of time, give or take a few years. What matters now is that both of 'em want the same land and neither has the civility nor cultural maturity to live with each other as equals.

Speak for yourself. That more common "thingy" is not commom here.

yeah...I've never suffered from the premature "thingy" in my 45 years on this planet.

:P

Well. I'm glad to hear that for your sake. I meant you hear about it more commonly than premature celebration, which is not used as a phrase at all.

Just premature conclusions.

better than believing what I am told to believe by the party of the left.

Bone, you'll find no shortage of people here who wonder just what planet you're referring to.

only the those living on Liberal Eutopia....becasue the rest are cognitive and know exactly where I am talking about. :D

I said that I first heard it from a 4th grade girl. She was by no means the only one I heard it from or the only source I have.

I guess the arab hatred of jews is all the fault of either Britian, USA or Russia. Those stupid arabs wouldn't know who to hate without us messing all that stuff up for them and telling them what to do. No way they hated the jews before we even bothered with them [/sarcasm]

Did "Persians" just get promoted to "Arabs"? :confused:

Good point. Too much generalization. Iranians are indeed Persian, not Arab. Yet the hatred of jews encompasses both. Perhaps we should be referring to Jews and Arabs together as Semites. As to "promotion", I know several Persians that would not be happy with that statement.

But it is accurate, whether they like it or not. ("Promotion" was tongue in cheek.)

Yep, I know it was toungue in cheek. It just made me think of my Iranian friend who would get upset whenever you called him an "Iranian". He would always say "I'm a Persian". God help you if you called him an Arab, he would rant for hours on how the Persians were so much better, smarter, etc... than the Arabs. I'd spin him up on occasion if things were slow; he was a good guy.

As for Hebrew and Arabic, they both share the same linguistic background - semetic (sons of Shem). That strongly suggests a common ancestry. I'm sure that there are many on both sides that are not happy about that.

Dude, if anyone shows signs of being spoon fed opinions, it is your exalted self. I hardly ever open e-mails from the Demo party.

But who am I kidding. You've convinced yourself that anyone who differs from you is a dupe, a fool, a miscreant. Good luck with that.

I guess that the mention of killing Jews in the Koran would indicate that Arab or Muslim hatred of Jews began some time ago. I don't pretend to be able to explain or understand the full scope of it. Not sure hatred and reason occupy the same plane.

Perhaps the entry of the Jews into the holy lands and the attendant massacres set the stage for 10,000 years of emnity. Could well be that the Jews at that time had plenty of good reason for taking up arms the way they did.

I imagine Hitler's extreme anti-Jewish stance attracted Iranians along with Hitler's beating up on Iran's long time tormentors. A lot of this stuff is like looking at the world through the wrong end of a telescope.

One thing I keep getting from you and MikeMover, Botnst too, is that you guys definitely have a dog in this fight and you're cheering for that dog. Only natural, I guess. However, a crucial component of fair judging, say like in our judicial system, is maintaining impartiality. Both sides have transgressed pretty badly, I'd say. I just wish Zionists had settled on upstate NY for their nation rather than Palestine/Israel. Might not have been able to pry it away from the U.S., as a separate nation anyway, but could have had a much smoother community life than what they've got now.

Still, I can't help but believe that the more recent abuse Arabs and Iranians have endured at the hands of the West and Zionism has stoked the furnace of their resentment somewhat.

Who's got a dog in what fight? My decoder ring isn't working.

B

Thats a quick way to tick off an Ethnic Iranian....call them an arab. THey really hate that.

Persians tend to be lighter skinned than arabs. And will argue there are other racial differences. Iranian friends told me this.

Excising the smug-bomb crap, I agree with this--it is well documented.

Amen from the choich.

Lets just employ flippancy instead.

Your bias has been made clear on this matter many times.

Fortunately we have you to determine who is biased and who is fair-minded.

Y'all both make some good points. Y'all both make specious arguments, as well.

Unfortunately for mankind, we are not alone. Fortunately though, we have you to make the calls about which are which.

However, no one measures up to Botnst in delineating truth from fantasy. The ultimate arbiter and impartial observer.

.........the grand POOBAR............;) :D

I made no such call(s), but would be quite pleased to if called upon.

:confused:


I'm not sure what you're getting at....

But if you're implying that I'm Jewish, you are definitely WRONG.

Mike

#126 implies that you have the gift.

Originally Posted by cmac2012
............
One thing I keep getting from you and MikeMover, Botnst too, is that you guys definitely have a dog in this fight and you're cheering for that dog. Only natural, I guess.....

Stll wondering what you mean.

I admit that sometime in the spring of each yeah I get a hankering for unsalted crackers. Then I have this craving for bitter herbs and roasted lamb.

Oi vey! Oops.

Golly!

Of course it does.

Well then, I guess we are agreed that you a wonderfully remarkable person with a unique gift.

B

Of course we do.

I've read you say you're not Jewish in the past. Clearly though, you've made up your mind on the issue, stating once, emphatically, that Palestine doesn't belong to the Palestinians. Of course, ownership of land is usually allocated on a king of the mountain basis, so by that leger, it doesn't.

OTOH, we always go on about the rule of law in our land, and the way Israel obtained its current territory violated one law after another, as we see them.

One thing is fairly certain: Israeli Jews will be living in stressful conditions for a long time. Their enterprise has not been handled skillfully.

Well, I guess it's true about people and their blind spots. I hear you cite Palestinian atrocities time and again, with the clear message that these acts cancel out all Israeli atrocities, and then some. Zionists set this ball in motion, against the objections of Jews who somehow managed to stay in the holy lands all those years. It has turned out badly and they are the ultimately responsible party.

Tell you what -- let's just save a lot of time:

Your opinions are correct -- each and every one. No need to look further.

Bring on the matzohs, I've become Jewish!

It is a waste of time to argue the records of history to determine land ownership in Israel. Any date given by one side will be met by a preceding date by the other side. I don't recall ever offering the opinion that the Palestinians' land claims are illegitimate. Nor have I ever said that the Israelis are without fault or blame. I think if you read it, most of what I have opined is that dynamiting civilians is inexcusable. You and GottahatetheJews embrace every opportunity to excuse the Palestinians of targeting civilians and then blame Israel for the Palestinians' butchery.

The Israelis screw-up attacks on legitimate targets and kill civilians. If the soldiers who do that were negligent in their duty then they should be courts martialed. In the 1940's and 1950's the Israelis targeted civilians. The Israelis had an unwritten policy of 'ethnic cleansing.' The families of the people who they murdered or forcefully evicted should be compensated or their land returned. If the perps are still living they should be prosecuted. Even some Israelis have said that.

But Palestinians who left voluntarily in hopes of a swift victory by the surrounding Arab states gambled and lost. Tough toenails. They bet on the losing horse. People who recruit, train and support bombers who target civilian Israelis should be targeted for killing. Folks who help in those endeavors are complicit to mass murder. F**k'em.

B

Originally quoted by Botnst:
Give the man a seegar for hitting the old "the first liar doesn't stand a chance" nail right on the head.

Speaking of him, where'd he go? Banished mayhaps.

I don't excuse it at all, the civilian bus blowups etc. It is happening. Ipso facto, human beings are capable of such things. Don't know how I would react in similar circumstances. If a large group is convinced that they have approximately zero options -- backs against the wall -- perhaps all bets are off. I can't explain it.
Doesn't look too likely.

It's common for civilians to flee in time of war. What, they were supposed to stay? Would have worked out better, but if the citizens were essentially unarmed, it's hard to fault them for fleeing Israeli troops and their propensity for slaughtering entire villages. This killing of civilians is ancient history, I suppose, statute of limitations run out.

But hell, who am I kidding? This sort of thing is going to become more and more common given rampant population growth. Rules of normal civility will likely be discarded and ignored.

Specious?! Who you calling specious? I don't discriminate against other species.

Yep, you're right. I've looked at the history and the facts, and I've made up my mind. Why should I be "open-minded" to changing my conclusions just because you're sympathetic to the other side for some reason, and are trying to convince me to do so?

Last time I checked, the history and the facts have not changed. So neither will my conclusions.

Both sides of this particular struggle are guilty of plenty of wrongdoing and buffoonery. But when I look at all the available information, I find that the Palestinians behavior has been "more wrong".

Mike

On who's more wrong, it's a bit of a toss up. Palestinians have been behaving worse lately. OTOH, Israel began this thing, using tactics that would engender violent oppostion with anyone.

They've made their bed and it won't be moving anywhere any time soon, nor will Palestinans who have few other options. Not the kind of life I would have chosen.

Ahh, I get it. They should have bet on the Zionists, the winning horse, who would have taken them under their wing. :rolleyes:

No denying it, mass murder has been perpetated. How does that go, the physics law; for every action there's an opposite but equal reaction? Slaughtering multiple villages and in general pushing people aside like so much debris certainly set the stage for prolonged unpleasantness. In a case like this, where it is Israeli civilians who have displaced the former long time owners of the land, targeting those civilians is not quite the same as oh, say, the U.S. bombing of cities in N. Vietnam.

3,000 years ago, they would have slaughtered the losing side so thoroughly, there wouldn't be much opposition left. Few would have known about it -- some allies of the losing party would get wind of it and perhaps extend reprisals -- but there wouldn't be an international awareness of it like there is now. The old rules don't work as in the age of global communications.

Viet Nam.

=
 

Iraq

Willful blindness and ingore-ance.

I'm sure hawks would like to forget Vietnam and move on to bigger and better things. Goood luck.

And I'm sure mediocre scientists would just love to ignore experimental results that aren't what they were hoping for.

The gift that keeps on giving.

What's Vietnam? It sounds familiar.... I think I knew something about it once.

There ya go, have fun.