I caught that too, but didn't feel like doing more than adding a disclaimer. His online identity is "Amusement" on an offroad enthusiast site I frequent.

Ibid

Cool list Azi, but is there really that much difference between Hamas and the Hezbollah? Aren't we talking about the same coin here?

exactly. I thought a disclaimer would provide for accuracy while not pedantically splitting hairs.






















Not that you are in this case. I suspect your query is rhetorical.....:D

Hairsplitting? Did somebody call for me?

I guess if you feel that way, you might as well

1. jump ship while the getting is somewhat good and you have value
2. Go fix the problem yourself since you think it is so easy and you have the answers (yeah, right. I believe you do). Maybe then you can actually nuke Isreal and make friends with your muslim buddies who will then kiss your butt.

Geez man, what do you have against rabbits?

Hezbollah politicians back peace package
By SAM F. GHATTAS, Associated Press Writer 11 minutes ago
BEIRUT, Lebanon - Hezbollah politicians, while expressing reservations, have joined their critics in the government in agreeing to a peace package that includes strengthening an international force in south Lebanon and disarming the guerrillas, the government said.

ADVERTISEMENT


The agreement — reached after a heated six-hour Cabinet meeting — was the first time that Hezbollah has signed onto a proposal for ending the crisis that includes the deploying of international forces.

The package falls short of American and Israeli demands in that it calls for an immediate cease-fire before working out details of a force and includes other conditions.

But European Union officials said Friday the proposals form a basis for an agreement, increasing the pressure on the United States to call for a cease-fire.

President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair said Friday they too want an international force dispatched quickly to the Mideast but said any plan to end the fighting — to have a lasting effect — must address long-running regional disputes.

"This is a moment of intense conflict in the Middle East," Bush said after his meeting with Blair in Washington. "Yet our aim is to turn it into a moment of opportunity and a chance for broader change in the region."

By signing onto the peace proposals, Hezbollah gave Western-backed Prime Minister Fuad Saniora a boost in future negotiations.

Going into Thursday night's Cabinet session, Hezbollah's two ministers expressed deep reservations about the force and its mandate, fearing it could turn against their guerrillas.

"Will the international force be a deterrent one and used against who?" officials who attended the Cabinet meeting said in summing up Hezbollah cabinet ministers concerns. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the debate.

But afterward, Information Minister Ghazi Aridi announced that the package had been agreed on by consensus in a rare show of unity by a divided administration.

While all sides seemed to be looking for a way to stop the fighting, details of plans taking shape on all sides were still fuzzy. And it was not at all certain Hezbollah would really follow through on the Lebanese government plan that would effectively abolish the militants' military wing. It may have signed on to the deal convinced that Israel would reject it.

But the agreement presents Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice with a package she might find hard to ignore when she returns to the region.

The plan approved by the Cabinet was an outline that Saniora presented at an international conference in Rome on Wednesday.

It starts out with an immediate cease-fire. Following that would come:

• the release of Lebanese and Israeli prisoners; Israeli withdrawal behind the border; the return of Lebanese displaced by the fighting.

• moves to resolve the status of Chebaa Farms, a small piece of land held by Israel and claimed by Lebanon. The proposal calls for the U.N. Security Council to commit to putting the area under U.N. control until a final demarcation of the border.

• the provision by Israel of maps of minefields laid during its 18-year occupation of the south.

• "the spreading of Lebanese government authority over the entire country," meaning the deployment of the Lebanese army in the south, with the strengthening and increasing of the small, lightly armed U.N. peacekeeping force currently there.

The provisions do not spell out the order in which the steps must take place, but Saniora has said the government cannot spread its authority in the south unless the Chebaa farms issue is resolved. Israel's hold on Chebaa has provided Hezbollah with a rationale to maintain its arsenal and its "resistance" against Israel.

U.N. experts have previously determined that the territory is part of Syria's Golan Heights, now held by Israel. But Syria has said the patch of land is Lebanon's.

Also left undetermined is the contentious issue of the size and mandate of a peacekeeping force in the south. The current nearly 2,000-member force, deployed since 1978, is virtually ineffectual and its main task now is to patrol the Blue Line, monitor and report violations and deliver aid. Four U.N. border observers were killed in an Israeli airstrike this week.

The Lebanese government has previously rejected international demands that it disarm Hezbollah and move the army into the south. Without Hezbollah consent, the move could tear the country apart due to the movement's deep support among Shiite Muslims.

The rare united stand between Hezbollah and anti-Syrian politicians who dominate the government could give Lebanon a stronger say in any resolution of the conflict. A divided government may encourage unilateral U.N. Security Council action on the Lebanon crisis without consulting Beirut.

Visiting EU envoys, led by Finnish Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja, whose country currently holds the EU presidency, met Friday with Saniora and parliament speaker Nabih Berri, the de facto negotiator for Hezbollah.

Tuomioja, representing the EU Finnish presidency, said the troika appreciated the Lebanese government's plan which "we think forms a good basis for a regional agreement."

Screw the Hezbollah!!! I hope Israel doesn't stop attacking until every single one of those bastards are gone. :cool:

Assuming they hae a real plan to demilitarize the Hezbollah and stop the missiles and kidnappings, it might be a good thing. However, if not, party on.

That's one of your better ideas,

You guys hear about the hezbollah gathering in !oston?

Woulda been nice to follow some of those fockers home.....

Hairsplitting is old. Who gives a crap about hairsplitting? Anybody can do that. subatomic splitting is where it is at.

Bot's hare splitting kit


http://www.eiu.edu/~history/ha/exhib...4/100_1333.JPG

Aklim's atom splitting kit:
 

http://www.whiterockscience.com/sabrina/gifs/sdc.jpg:)

I love it when my tax $ is spent killing people and destroying a country- and then more of my tax $ are spent saving the same peoples, and rebuilding the country. The only better way to burn your money is to buy a boat....

I know exactly what you mean. Think how much better off we'd be now had we not blown trillions defeating Germany, Italy and Japan and then rebuilding them!

B

You can't really equate WWII with most other military actions, but thanks for trying.

I thought you were talking about the spending associated with military action, in which case, the argument stands.

B

Bravo Benz LGB
 

[QUOTE=BENZ-LGB]Oh Bot, you and your obscure Biblical references.

Everything was just honkey-dorey until Hamas kidnapped an Israeli soldier...then Hezbollah (sp?) just had to get into the act.


Thats exactly right! The Israeli Govt has strained to give the Palestinians their fair share in recent years, but the extremists still have their damned gripes. The Hezbollah obviously didnt figure on Israels military excellence, after all, do the Hezbollah use geocentric orbiting sattellites to guide their laser and telemetry guided munitions to within 6 feet of their targets? The Hezbollah are launching missiles at nothern Israel that have the same compairable guidance system as a one penny bottle rocket. They dont even have an old Piper Cub to get into the air. They were finished even before they started. In a few more days, there wont be a single weapon left for those fruitcakes to fire at Israel. Its a terrible shame too, the innocent civilians of Lebanon are paying a terrible price for all of this, maybe next time, Hamas and the Hezbollah should try asking the U.N. and Israel, nicely for what they need or want, and maybe they might be surprised on how diplomacy might be their secret key to success.....

What innocent people in Lebanon? You mean the ones that allowed Hezbollh to come in? Or were you talking about the ones that made them part of the government? Or the ones that they were supposed to disarm but looked the other way and did the above instead?

In my book, that makes you a part of the fight. I don't look at the person and say "Oh, you don't have a rifle so you are not fighting. You are innocent.". You knowlngly give directions to a bomber and you are just as bad as him. You give him money and you are of the same ilk. No, they are not innocent. They are just as guilty. Right or wrong is another issue here. What is at hand is that they have made themselves part of the fight and if it turns, so be it. If we are targeted because we gave aid to Isreal and that makes us guilty, it makes Lebanon just as guilty as Hezbollah and Iran and Syria.

I think he means the little kids who have no saying on who goes in and out of their neighborhoods.

Hezbollah does not, and could not, give a damn what happens to innocent lives. Just like they couldn't care less what happened to the UN observers.

This morning my daughter and I went to the beach. She went surfing and I went bike riding. When we were getting ready toleave it just hit me how good we have it here in the US. It also hit me how horrible it would be if some demented terrorists decided to park their rocket launchers in my neighborhood or ont he beach where my kids and I go--thus inviting a strike from the other side.

i feel sorry for the Lebanese people. Before Syria decided to turn Lebanon into a guerilla training base and a shooting range, Lebanon was a fairly nice country to live in--the Switzerland of the Mediterranean.

All that this extremist terrorists have managed to accomplish is to destroy a once beautiful country.

And I would join you on that fight S-n-T.

If that were the case, they would have been long gone from there. They paid off the locals with all the good stuff they did, fix houses for free (Jihad Construction) and many others. Well, you took the goods, don't be surprised when the bill comes. That would be like me going to a 5 star restaurant and ordering all kinds of good food and the best wines and then get upset when the meal ends and the bill is presented.

I look at it this way. When Salman Rushdie had his book going, all kinds of protests were heard. When the Danish cartoonist drew the cartoon, all kinds of storms. However, when OBL rammed planes into our buildings in the name of Islam, not a peep. So, it means that they can mobilize if something is said about them that is incorrect. So, what does that lead me to believe? That the barrel is good but for a few bad apples or that the barrel is pretty much rotten with a good apple here and there? I mean, if someone went out there killing people in the name of the Smith family and I was a smith, you bet I would stand up and denounce that guy saying he doesn't speak for me. But if I don't, what does it signify?

Which is the lessor evil? If you denounce the Smiths you might get stung by them. However, would you rather be stung by the people they irritate?

That is what parents are for. I don't like green people with one leg and one eye on the corner of 5th and Main. Fine. We can live with it. The bullet doesn't like anybody and you cannot live with it. The bullet is non-discriminatory. Man, woman and children are the same to it. Therefore, if as a parent, you couldn;t care less to not involve your kids in these issues and invite people who fire rockets at others, why should I sympathize when your kids get blown up in a rocket attack?

But yet the locals welcome them with open arms. What should I gather from that?

Then it woul behoove you to remove these people from your neighbourhood. Tell them to take it elsewhere instead of inviting them for coffee. If enough of you want them out, they will have to leave.

[QUOTE=dave_rose69]I think we wouldn't be surprised at what diplomacy would bring but it's a non-starter to begin with. Even the harshest of diplomatic solutions isn't going to involve the eradication of Israel and the jewish people. This is why Hamas and Hezbollah will not diplomatically negotiate or will quickly break whatever agreements are negotiated. Their goal is the eradication of Israel and Judaism. It's really very simple.

Obviously you look to who will kill you now and not who will do it next week.

That is true. However, in the case of Hezbollah, they didn't do that. Hezbollah has long realized that is counterproductive. They would be fighting 2 fronts. This way, they have one front and a shield. They bought over the people via services, money, etc, etc. So in their case, they ate the fine dinner and now they are having to pay the check

regardless of the niceties that Hezbollah purchases for the folks, what do you think the end result would be for a family in southern Lebanon that went out campaigning against Hezbollah a la Cindy Sheehan style?

Fatwah style!

I don't know about threats. I do know that they buy the locals off and are part of the government. In any case, I doubt that much would be done to that one person since it would create a backlash for them. We have seen in the news about how wonderful people think they are and all that. Has there been threats and bad things that happened to muscle the locals? I haven't seen that. Only time I have seen it happen is in Iraq and Afghanistan where they are in open state of war. I have never heard of it from Lebanon where Hezbollah says "Take us in, or else.....". Have you?

But if most of the people are against them, would they be able to shoot them all? Doubtful. If they even shot one of them, what do you think it will do to their re-election and all the goodwill they build? I wouldn't. In any case, I haven't seen any reports of them doing such a thing. If they did it, the properganda department would be all over it and spinning it to no end.

Easier said than done bro...easier said than done.

And, again, kids cannot be blamed for their parents' behavior.

Hezbollah goes all the way up from their janitor to the government. That much is fact. They have government officials with Hezbollah ties and are even active members itself. That is fact. That the common guy is being bullied is speculation because we have not seen a single report that it is widespread. Yes, one or two crews may be doing it but have you seen it as a widespread issue where they say "Do this, or else..." I mean, where did you get your info from that gives any inkling that it is a widespread thing? Yes, people hope for it to be so because it would say that the barrel is good except for a few bad whereas I think the barrel is full of rotten apples with a few good.

So, where have you seeen any reports of them pressganging the locals other than speculation?

I'm not saying that the kids are to blame. However, the kids getting chewed up is a consequence of their parent's action or inaction. Colateral damage, if you will. The gun doesn't have a "terrorist" and "general population" switch. It hits who it is pointed at be it man, woman or child.

Agreed. However, the question still remains. How do you know Hezbollah is leaning onthe locals? What are the credible sources that you read that tell you they are leaning on the locals? I mean, if what you say is true, it fits the theory that they are mostly good except for a few bad. However, all I am saying at this time is there aren't those facts that support that theory that I have seen. If you have different sources than we do, please cite them so we can at least see where your opinion is coming from. You don't like CNN? Fine. Feel free to use a credible source.

Parents can, and have been, held accountable for their children's actions.

I am referring here to the 5 yo or the 10 yo who lives in an apartment building where hezbollah has chose to hide weapons or shoot rockets from.

That kid has no control over his destiny. His, or her, death when a missile strikes the building saddens me.

The kid has no control over his destiny or in this topic, lack of it. But the parents do. That they brought over these clowns indicates to me that they know (assuming they are sane and considered responsible for their actions) what can happen and decided to take the risk. Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you. That will not sadden me. After all, if people think children are greatly influenced by their parents and these are the sort of parents, what will the kids grow up to be?

However, even if someone tells me they do turn out better than their parents, in either case, if their parents don't care about their kid's future, why should I feel sad when the kid gets killed. You don't care about your livestock and it dies, why should I care!!

You have just answered your own question. We should care because children ARE the future.

Children are not livestock.

I have prosecuted many child molesters where the child's own mother knew about the molestation and turned a blind eye to it...even going to the extreme of coming to the aid of the accused and accusing her own own, (molested) child of being a "liar."

Should we, as a society, not care about these children because the child's own mother did not care enough to protect the child?

I don't think so.

We NEED to care about the children, regardless of what kind of a@@holes their parents may be. Kids have no choice on who gets to parent them.

Assuming they are the future and are raised by those clowns who are backing Hezbollah, how is it then not in our interests if they get killed? You say they are the future. Future of Hezbollah gets killed? No skin off my teeth. They are not of our society. They are of a society that doesn't like us and will probably, in some way, aid Hezbollah. Therefore, one less is one less that potentially will cause us trouble. They would cheerfully do the same for us.

Nice logic. If they are all guilty then I guess we should have just nuked Vietnam at the time- they would have all been guilty. And Panama. And Afganistan. Geez all military actions should just involve nukes by your thinking. If we are wrong in this thinking then we ought to be nuked then, by your logic.

Name another military actions so black and white as WWII, please.

And your suggestion is what? That unless they are standing in the field of battle with a uniform or at least a gun, they are innocent? If you elect a child molester or a murderer to serve you, what should I assume?

I never said to nuke everthing. Certain sitiuations where we can send a nuke in instead of a battalion of men to get cut up, certainly. Tora Bora comes to mind. Iran when they held hostages comes to mind too.,

Very sorry to hear that you're on the side of a country that
1) is aggressively crushing another country because some extremists kidnapped two israeli soldiers on LEBANON territory.
2) bombed a UN building in this region on purpose, killing 4 UN soldiers.
3) already killed hundreds of civilians and is just "terribly sorry".
4) blew up oil reservoirs thus creating a huge environmental catastrophy affecting the coastlines of Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Greece, probably Cyprus and, ironically, Israel.....

want some more? :rolleyes:

The little mideast turmoil is still going on. Hint: It's very very very very very difficult to win the war against terrorism with brute military force. :rolleyes:

Another hint: You'd talk more to Arabic/Muslim people. It really helps get a new perspective on these things. :idea2:

1. Not the whole story, is it. What about the fact that these extremists are part of the Lebanese government? What about the fact that they are doing this and many other actions for years. Oh, that doesn't matter. Lets look at the 2 soldiers.

2. You don't know that and neither does Kofi who is spouting off his mouth before he has even completed an investigation. Also there was anotehr post about hezbollah using staging areas near UN posts.

3. Civillians who are innocent or part of Hezbollah? If they are having govenmental positions whee they are voted in, either the election is rigged or the people actually want them there.

4. Sometimes, bad things happen in war. We are past the stage of 2 armies meeting at dawn on a battlefield.

Unless you have the stones to annihilate the enemy totally.

My suggestion obviously escapes your small mind- guilty by association is faulty logic.

Good thing we hjave you large minded people to tell us. Don't bother explain it anyways. We should just accept your word.:rolleyes:

It has to be viewed in context.

Now, WWII is a black and white conflict. Nowadays when anyone reads Mein Kampf it's bloody obvious that Hitler was going to do what he did. BTW, the book was published well before the war started.

At the time it was very controversial, just like today's conflict.

Here's a prediction. In 50 or so years people will wonder how anyone could have been so stupid as to miss that militant Islam wanted to kill anyone who disagreed with them. Especially the governments in the West.

Hopefully it will be from the viewpoint of a free person in a liberal democracy and not from some woman about to be whipped for showing too much leg.

Bot's example of Germany and Japan are exactly relevent to the current discussion.

Agincourt. Trafalgar. San Jacinto. Manassas 1 & 2. Kuwait. Leyte Gulf.

Oh wait, when you say "military action" do you mean a battle, a campaign or a war? And whatever happened to the other variable you mentioned concerning military spending?

Use your giant he-brain and decide what your terminology is going to be and let us cerebrally-challenged play on a level field.

For everybody's info.. the building had nothing to do with Hezbollah. Their only war-time crime was to store a good amount of flour (the thing you need to make bread so as not to starve to death) not guns as Israel tried to suggest.