I cerainly wouldn't want to be part of a tribe or nation that just volunteered to commit suicide. It's very hard to blame Jews for fighting back so effectively after the spectacle of being led more or less meekly to Hitler's gas chambers. Not to mention decades/centuries of being abused by majority populations.

Still, there is something to be said for choosing fights you can win, and you have to wonder if they will be at peace at their current address at any point in the forseeable future.

All the news stations keep talking about WW3 but I don't really see it happening. I guess the media is trying to scare the hell out of us once again. Israel can take out Palestine, Syria and Lebanon within a few days if they just bombed the hell out of them (nuclear weapons). Yes, I'm crazy ;) .

Good analysis. I agree completely on the Brit/USA dynamic. We are anglo speakers and strongly allied with GB in most everything. We are the Brits' descendents in many ways.

Iraq and Iran both have historical grievances with GB as well.

I agree with a lot of what you say and I really HATE to point out that Achmahd-dean-ah-jad in Iran also says it was Europe's problem and what right did they have to push it off on Arabs in Palestine?

However, the Jews had a thing for Jerusalem and the East Wall (or is it West Wall) stretching way, way back, and they were likely going to make a bid for it sooner or later anyway.

Example? My idea? Got one?
A big part of modern islamism is anti-west and it has as much cred in reletivaly more moderate mid east states as it does in those that are overtly hostle to the US... these countrys have other 'reasons of their own' for being anti-us... they are not demonstrably more islamist (excepting Iran). Iraq and Syria were/are competing baathist socialist arab rebublicans whose relationship with islamism is as a convenient bed fellow.

Some moderator you are :silly:
Didn't you post a new rule recently about naming Americans??
Take your own advice, and perhaps ban yourself for a while.

That's pretty telling, all right.

Yes, those imperialist Israeli bastards... They're taking over the whole region! Just look at that map! :rolleyes:

Mike

Mike, that's a "perspective" map, don't you know?

From the POV of the Jew haters, Israel's portion of the MIddle East is HUGEEEEEEEE. Even if they only had a tiny sliver of a sliver of land, it would still be HUGE to the anti-Semites.


To them, one Jew alive is one Jew too many.

I agree with the other Mike, only Jews can assure their own survival. Leave them alone and just stay the hell away from Israel when it is protecting its right to survival. :flamethro

It has been destroyed for a long time because we switched to this high tech, gee-whiz stuff.

You mean like way back when? :rolleyes:

How about this. We give them the land they started with and they don't try to take more...

Why doesn't Israel like to hear that?

How about this...we stay the f@@k away and let Israel defend itself.

This latest mess started when Israel gave in to pressure from the U.S. and the U.N. and allowed Hizbollah to move into Southern Lebanon. As the article quoted by someone else here mentioned, Israel's pull out of So. Lebanon was seen by the Hizbollah fanatics as weakness in the part of Israel and a victory for them. That only emboldened Hizbollah and their sponsors.

What if Mexico started firing missiles into Arizona or California (instead of sending over hordes of illegal aliens). Would you advocate returning the Southwest to Mexico in order to appease them.

Maybe you would, I wouldn't and most people wouldn't either.

Israel has the right to defend itself by all means necessary; Jews cannot (and should not) rely on the rest of the world to protect them.

Just let the Jews do what they need to do....

I saw this quote and haven't read the other 15 or 20 behind or in front of it (caveat), but before Patton died, he was Military Governor of one of Western Sector of Germany which includes Bavaria. He was villified towards the end of his life by the press as an anti-semite (when he died, the Jewish Veterans Association of WWII made a huge memorial to him:rolleyes: ). In some of his personal papers, he suggested that instead of going to Palestine, that the Polish, Czech and Hungarian Jews (he wanted to kill all Russians period) migrate to Bavaria.......Shortly after this diary entry, Patton was removed by Ike as leader of the occupying 3d Army which had been the most violent, powerful force on the planet, and put in charge of the 15th, whose mission it was to write the battle history of the European Campaign. Then he died following a car wreck.

Not a stupid question Yal. Because it is the 'Promised Land' is the easy answer, but not the only one.

Agree 100%. Let them do what they want to do. And we stay OUT of it. That means we stop giving them money for their fight and we do not take sides. If they want to invade half of Middle East. Let them. But make sure they do it with THEIR people. NOT ours.

Fair enough?

If the man in post #20 is correct, we are giving Israel about $3 billion per year in aid. If I'm not mistaken that's about 1/6 of the annual budget of the State of New Jersey.

That's not that much money in the grand scheme of things. Of course, if the powers that be want to put it in my bank acount, I won't complain. ;)

This is NOT correct. A common misrepresentation of numbers. Actual US Foreign Aid to Israel is USD$1.2B annually, with a progressive cut-off of $200M per year. They should be able to stand on their own within 10 years. I don't find this surprising, as Israel has the third largest amount of NASDAQ traded companies after the US and Canada. There is of course, a larger amount of money approved by congress (exceeding $1.5B annually) for the aquisition of Military and Hi-Tech manufacturing by Israel (guidance systems, etc.). On a hi-tech note, it is worthy to note that Intel's R&D plant located in Haifa, has brought us such things as the Pentium M, and the new Pro Duo chip. They were even involved in the design of the original Pentium chip way back when. The Israelis are also responsible for state of the art medical equipment, among many other innovations. What about #2 on the list: Egypt. What have they done for us lately? :(

Excellent points, and accurate information.

On the other hand... If they're doing so well, then why do they still need ANY of our money?.....

Mike

Got us into a huge war and slowly angering some of our best allies?:confused:

Would there be a competitive bid process if we took all of the Israeli aid and turned it into a low interest loan and offered it to anyone in "The Area In Question"?

Would we still maintain an "allie" in the area this way, or would all but Israel and the Saudies shun the opportunity (ok, no need to address the issue that SA doesnt need our help--you get the point)

:confused: Please explain further.

Anticipating that there is a good argument to have a strategic ally (and further that this is the ONLY reason we give aid to Israel) in the region, why is it Israel, why not the highest bidder?

This concept is still in its infancy, btw, hatched during a golf game in 102 heat yesterday. I am all ears as to why this would be a bad idea.

Exactly why did they try to take more again? Did it have something to do with a skirmish that they won? My history is a little fuzzy on that. Please refresh my memory.

You trust any of the other muslim countries there? I wouldn't as far as I could shoot them.

All good points.

Got any numbers on how much we give to Palestine?

How about how much Israel gives to Palestine?

How about what products Palestine produces and sells to the world (bombs and suicide bombers don't count)?

Which industries does Palestine excel in (again, see the exclusionary statement above)?

Just several rhetorical questions that come to mind when thinking about Israel and Palestine. Regardless of who was where first, and I have my opinion on that as well, shouldn't we look at who contributes more to the world as worthwhile of something?

A few weeks ago I mentioned the problem with moral equivalence that so many people in this country and others have. In that they must find equivalence in every event that happens within a conflict. If there is none then it's fair game to dredge up something from decades ago to use. I'm sure we've all heard numerous times phrases like "well in Vietnam..." or "when we dropped the bomb on Tokyo/Dresden/Hiroshima/...", usually in reference to a present day conflict or action. I gave the example of building a wall around your country. Folks who must find moral equivalence in every action will see no difference in a wall built through Berlin and a wall built south of San Diego. All the while missing the key point that one is built to keep people in and the other to keep people out. Likewise with the civilian casualties in the recent conflict. Both sides have done so. The difference is that the Palestinian side is purposefully targeting civilians and then hiding in and among their own civilians, or in the case of Lebenon unrelated third party civilians. Israel is targeting the cowards that hide amongst the civilians. Big difference.

The article I posted from Arab Times is very illustrative of what the Lebanese opinion should be regarding Palestine. Yes, I know that it addressed Hamas and The Hezbollah. Except that Hamas and The Hezbollah are Palestine. At least not many in Palestine disagree with that. That's fine but now you as Palestinians take responsibility for the ones you endorse. To make a simple analogy; if my son comes home and hurls things at the neighbors and constantly threatens them he endangers the family. I love my son but he must go from my house or stop what he is doing - pick one.

It's hard to have sympathy for a group of people that want nothing but violence and the extermination of thier neighbors. There is no will to compromise there. So, a choice must be made. Do you pick the side that refuses to acknowledge the right to exist of another and contributes nothing to the world but pain and violence? Or do you pick the side that produces usable products for the world to use and has an elected government that makes the choices that count? I know who I'm picking.

If they can't both coexist in the same geographical area then lets pick the one that has the greatest chance of co-existing with the other people in the region. Israel has proven it can do so with Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon. Both Jordan and Egypt want nothing to do with the Palestinian people and have in fact built walls to keep them out - exactly as the Israelis have. Which is the party here that just can't get along?

So, why move Israel anywhere? Why isn't it the Palestinians that move? And by the way, both Palestinians and Jews are of semitic origin, so an anti-semitic Palestinian makes absolutly no sense, or at least as much sense as a self-hating Jew.

I posted this question a while back and got no response from the Palestinian crowd so here it is again:

How many temples are in the Palestinian territory and how many mosques are in Israel?

You don't trust anybody as you often point out, so your vote counteth not.

Ah, but you see, this is a case of you hating your neighbour and using your son as a proxy to bother your neighbour. Then you claim "He's only kid and not totally responsible for his actions."

well then, don't get too upset when he's blowed up along with the rest of your house.

I don't distrust everybody but I don't trust them either. They start out neurtal but I keep in the back of my mind the worst thing they can do. IOW, I let them prove themselves to me but I keep it in the back of my mind that they will screw up and they have, for the most part, proven me right in which case, I am prepared. In this case, I actively distrust them and suspect them of anything first.

Well, that is what is happening. They were told that their clock was going to be turned 20 years back.

After the USS Liberty -- Sorry, I don't trust Israel. Not for a second.

As to the USS Liberty, there seems to be a bit of an issue with the assist they called for and the top leadership calling it off too. I wonder what was going on there. Did it have to do with the Golan Heights or was it a simple "oops". If it was the latter, why did we call of the support planes and investigation?

In any case, they did hold off when Hussien dropped scuds onto their territory so that does count for something. If you are looking for the perfect ally, keep looking cause you won't find it. However, I still think they are better than the rest of the bunch.

Nar thanks for the Patton quote, this just goes to show again that he was one of the best commanders and Generals of the 20th century.


Allies are only allies when they have a commen interest. Still I'd trust Isreal a whole heck of a lot more then most of the other countries over there.

No one hates the Americans . The only thing that the middle east frowns upon is the "ausrüsten" of Israel with high-tech weaponry and nuclear capabilities by the US . Iraq said "nein, mein herr" to the UN when it came to inspections and lost the golden toilett but Israel never gets questioned
about their nuclear arsenal because of US backing . Hamas and Hezbollah
were created when Israel was created or more precisely "when Israel was forced upon the middle east" . Therefore, if there's no Israel then there's no Hamas or Hezbollah . This is not a war against terrorist entities, this is a war
to stop the support of Israel by the US . This support offsets the balance in the middle east . Germany sold tanks and other military weapons to Israel but stopped after seeing that their weapons are used to kill stone throwing kids . 9/11 happened because of that support for Israel . The media, especially in the NY area controlled by jews was quick to shift the reason for the attack to the "they hate our way of living" crap but the rest of the world did see the attack for what it was . Everyone is wondering why the US is not stopping the assault by Israel and the reason is simple : After this fighting stops, Israel will buy more weapons from the US because no other country is willing to sell to Israel . Once a Vietnam veteran was asked what he thinks of US-Israel relations and his answer was "Cut'em lose" . I agree
with that 100% . One men's terrorist is another men's freedom fighter .

One man's terrorists....

Sure, get on a bus loaded with school kids and kill them all. Ram hijacked civilian airplanes into buildings filled with civilians. It's America's fault. It is always somebody else's fault. They had no choice. Allahu Akbar!

If we'd only leave these peace-loving people alone they'd quit murdering innocent people. How stupid of me.

B

Gotta love that moral relatavism.:silly:

Wow its so simple, everything is our fault!:eek:

Now you're with the program!










Seriously though, interesting article by Michael Yon here.

It was the French who gave Israel nuclear power.


That's because Iraq has OIL. Israel does not. Plus, if someone dropped you in the middle of psycholand (the UN decided Israel's geographical placement), would you not pack a weapon?

Really? Here's a fact: Hezballah killed 240 US Marines in 1982... way before any attack on Israel.

Why would Israel buy German tanks? They have one of the best tanks in the world; the Merkava... with a Chevy engine of course.


Your opinion here is ignorant.


.... even more ignorance.


Really? Hmm... I guess Israel doesn't do anything for the US except build parts for the F-117, guidance systems, missile defense, intelligence, etc.


"Once a Vietnam veteran...", Who? Please be specific.. was he an officer? Was he enlisted? What branch? "Cut'em lose" sounds very official though.

OMFG! Dude.... OMFG!

I personally think what the world is leanng towards is an all out war starting in the middle east, yes a real WW3. It's inevitable the way things are going. Nuclear war, famine, disease, a true human and ecological holocaust. That's our future, we better start preparing for it. I believe it's coming within 10 years. Call me a cynic, but I believe Armageddon will happen. I would really like to deny it, but then I'm a realist. Please try to Convince me I'm wrong!

You're wrong.


there, feel better?

18?

I will take my chances with a Jew (or an Israeli) anytime...

I would never turn my back on a Muslim idealogue.

What do you think would happen if first thing tomorrow morning all the Muslims terrorists stop murdering innocent people, stop bombing school buses full of school kids and stop flying planes full of innocent peopleinto buildings full of similarly innocent people???

Peace in the Middle East and the rest of the world.

What do you think would happen if first thing tomorrow morning Israel dumps all of its weapons into the sea ???

Another Holocaust.

I love these self-loathing Americans and their knee-jerk reaction of "blame America first!" A pox on them.

I have not read everything and have only caught bits and pieces in the news, but here is my take on it.

All the countries surrounding israel hate the israeli people. they want the country and land for themselves.

Israel is fed up with all this Crap, and are basically trying to prove a simple point. Leave us alone and we leave you alone.

If the lebanese did something to israel by kidnapping some israeli soldiers, israel in a nut shell will not stand for it and are doing what they feel is necessary to say to the lebanese and everyone else, Don;t F**K With us.

The parts I have caught are this. Israel is attacking strategically and going after specific targets, while the lebanese are just shooting randomly into israel killing innocent people without a care for where their missles etc go.

That is how I see it.

Personally I am on israel's side in this, being a Jew, and having appreciation for what they are trying to accomplish with the country.

The U.S. has also done the same thing time and again. someone messes with us or one of our friends, and we wont stand for it and will do what is necessary to prove our point... Do not F**K With us.

Alon

That just about covers it for me.

Don't f@@k with me and I won't f@@k with you.

So simple and yet some people just don't get it.

BTW Alon, congrats on your new "acquisition." I was at Enrique's today for a quick oil and filter change on my E320. What a great guy. Carlos is coming along real nicely...when Enrique retires our Benzes will be in good hands.

81?

Moral relativism can be fun, eh?....

Too bad that's not how it really works.

Evil is evil. A terrorist is a terrorist. Either you are intentionally targeting non-strategic, innocent civilian targets, or you are not. There is no relativism, no grey area there.

Mike

And to the add to the list of evil...storing weapons, rockets and other military supplies in civilian homes and civilian areas.

That is just pure evil... and cowardly...and cynical.

First you are inviting innocent civilians to be hurt when the weapons caches are targeted by opposing forces.

Second, when the caches are targeted and civilians are inevitably hurt, then you run to CNN and the NY Times and the other useful idiots in the pess and you bemoan the fact that innocent civilians have been hurt.

It reminds of robbers who hold on to civilian hostages for protection.

Why can't anyone else see this?

If you store military supplies in an apartment building, where civilians live, how can you then cry when the building is targeted and civilians hurt? How can the press just ignore this?

Which side has continually shown utter contempt for human life?

Does this tell me who the terrorist is?

http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/ap/2006/07/20/ap2892268.html

Or this?

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19849608-601,00.html

Or this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5197186.stm

Amazing what you can learn when you turn off FOX.

Personally, I don't need the NY Times, CNN, or Fox for that matter, to tell me who a terrorist is.

I don't know why some people have such a hard-on against Jews, Israel, the U.S., etc. Well, I do know the reason, I just don't get it.

This is what I do know (no need for the press, liberal or conservative) here:

Store weapons cache in an apartment building, thus inviting attack--you're a terrorist.

Target school children, while riding their school buses or in their classroom--you're a terrorist.

Hijack airplanes and fly them into buildings--you are a terrorist.

Kill an old man, and toss his body over the side of a ship--you're a terrorist.

Bomb a bus full of tourists or bomb subway trains--you are a terrorist.

Refuse to fight face to face, mano a mano--you're a terrorist and a coward.

Case closed.

Everything else is just more mental masturbation in order to justify what can't be morally justified.

The worst part is all the kids getting hurt and killed and growing up in a chaotic society shrouded in violence and the threat and fear of violence - sowing the seeds early to perpetuate the cycle of hatred and violence.

It would be nice if their Daddies had the balls to settle their differences without killing each other or their children.

I don't see the ME conflict ending in our lifetime without something cataclysmic happening.