We just take them over. :D j/k

I guess we'll see in a few days. I don' think Syria or Iran could stand against Israel, especially since they'll be going in to destroy rather than occupy. I heard talk today of a multi-national military task force from the UN. Translation; Dear US would you please supply troops and supplies to this area of land and by the way, will you pay for it all. Thank you, your friends (occasionally when we need you) at the UN.

Yes but that dynamic is shifting rapidly.

That's what you're waiting for to enlist, no doubt. ;)

Funny, how the Arabs are now looking to the US to mediate a solution. Why can't they finally figure out their own crap, and work something out themselves? They are worse than wellfare recipients at this point.

Actually, I hear that a lot of Arab nations are giving Hamas the cold shoulder, basically saying that they have involved the people of Lebanon in a fight that is not of their making.

Could be they want the U.S. to prevent Israel from bombing Lebanon back into the stone age.

I'm on Israel's side on this more than I've been in a while, but there is the danger that they're cultivating a whole new generation of sworn enemies.

I'm not sure why the hell everybody is calling this the start of World War III... this little Mideast turmoil should be over in a few days. We should just let them all go at it and hope that Israel wins. :D

IF...IF Isael did attack Syria and Iran, China and its military maneuvers pal Russia, would not be pleased. Here the U.S. is locking in Iraqi oil, and to have the major U.S. offshore base, Israel, taking a fight to Iran would not be well received. China, Russian, and Iran together could cause us serious grief if it came down to it. As for winning that one, don't even want to think about it. It'd be nasty.

Exactly.

There was a TV cartoon series called The Critic. In it, the writers regularly skewered the UN. It was funny because it is all so true...the UN takes our money, they do nothing and then they blame the U.S.

That's the U.N.'s way.

I was watching an analysis of the military strengths of the respective players in the area. I would hate to be in Syria's shoes if Israel decides to attack them. I agree with you, I think Israel's aim is not occupy, but to destroy and they would be very good at it.

As for Syria's and Iran's sponsors (China and Russia) I am not too worried. Sadam Hussein was likewise the darling of both Russia and China and neither of those two countries did anything--other than moan and groan at the UN--to come to his rescue. And when Israel regularly beat the snot out of the Arabs, the Russians (back when they still had a viable army) still did nothing to help their Arab proxies.

So not much to worry about there.

It seems a lot of people in the mid east don't believe in traditional country borders. Thats why the terrorists/insurgents often hit their hosts with total indifference. Its why they are able to travel fairly easily across borders. Its no wonder that they also ignore the authoritities of their host countries and still have strong backing amongst the general population to do so. In a setting like that, where western ideologies are being rejected by the masses, what more can outsiders do to "fix" their problems? External meddling has only brought us to where we are now. Some Arabs and Jews might realize that religious zealotry is pushing the mid east even further behind the rest of the world, but its not enough to make a difference. There's a basic problem with that whole culture that defies common sense. Nobody will ever be satisfied with another temporary mediated peace.

I hope the rest of the world has enough smarts to steer clear of religious wars.

I am not sure it is all about religion--or even about religion at all. I think that extremists use religion as a reason/motivation to bring in new recruits to carry out their bidding. I think that religion is just a smoke screen for other motivation.

I think that the people who are leading the attacks on Israel are beyond religion...I think it is all political.

If it really was about religion according to their "books" they wouldn't be fighting now would they? it's political, it's selfish and blah blah woof woof.

It all comes down to the centuries-long saga of who gets to control and occupy Palestine. The biblical contexts are too strong to ignore. Hammas probably cares about what little oil production there is, but Hezbollah couldn't care less - they would just as soon burn the stuff off as sell it. What are the political motivations for an uncoordinated, haphazard strike that will only ensure more destruction and death? Who do they want to align with? Further, what kind of government allows such a huge stockpiling of missiles and bombs by a radical organization without anyone knowing or caring? And then calling upon the international community for help?

My god can beat-up your god, so there.

Exactly.

Bot, I disagree.

I think that the masses who do the actual fighting may be manipulated in the name of religion...a very convenient tool.

But the people doing the actual manipulation could not care less about religion.

I hate to say it, but this is all Europe's fault.
This doesn't go back to thousands of years, etc,etc.
This goes back to after the first world war when the English divided the old Ottoman empire and created Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan and Palestine. These were all British Mandates around the 1920's-1930's. Then, when the Jews were persecuted all over Europe by Fascists like the Austrians, Germans and Italians, and when these fascists suceeded in exterminating three quarters of the Jewish race, only then was Zionism born.

Definition of Zionism from Wikipedia:

Zionism is a political movement and ideology that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel, where the Jewish nation originated over 3,200 years ago and where Jewish kingdoms and self-governing states have existed up to the 2nd century. While Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, the modern movement was originally secular, beginning largely as a response to rampant antisemitism in Europe and many parts of the Muslim world during the 19th Century. After a number of advances and setbacks, and after the Holocaust had destroyed much of the existing Jewish society in Europe, the Zionist movement culminated in the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948.

After all that's happened to Jews over many centuries all over the world, I would bet my life that you will never, ever, ever see Israel "wiped off the map". Never. Ever. It's the only truly safe place for Jews in case some large group of people decides that they should be slaves again. It's safe even when rockets are coming down on them. Why can't those Arabs understand that? Israel is just looking to defend their homeland, not invade. The funny thing is Iran is roughly 50+ times bigger than Israel (geographically), and they wouldn't stand a chance against Israel's army... it would be bloody, but my money would be on Israel. Those Arabs are never going to learn. And those Europeans should shut the fcuk up right now, and let Israel correct Europe's mistakes. Chirac is an idiot.

The only thing that separates us from the animal kingdom is our ability to accessorise an outfit...

The Israel military is using Hezbollah as an example and attempting to bomb and otherwise force Hezbollah participants into not being able to continue the pattern of intrusion into Israel. The goal of the Israel military is to destroy as many semi-selected targets as they can to pursue this end. Hezbollah is one example of the many factions in the ME that seek to damage Israel.

In the case of the folks who attack Israel, they appear to be driven by the many faces of race based hatred. Hezbollah, the primary example of the moment has 2 faces:

1) “The civilian wing of Hezbollah runs hospitals, news services, and educational facilities and participates in the Lebanese Parliament. Its Reconstruction Campaign (Jihad al-Bina) is responsible for numerous economic and infrastructural development projects in Shia-populated areas of Lebanon.”

2) “Hezbollah is regarded by many inside and outside of the Arab and Muslim worlds, such as the Iranian and Syrian governments, as a legitimate resistance movement and is a recognized political party in Lebanon, where it has participated in government.

“However, as it initiates attacks against civilians in Israel and ideologically supports such attacks by other organizations, such as Islamic Jihad and Hamas, many governments, including the United States, have designated it a terrorist organization.” source

Why Hezbollah desires to to run hospitals and perform acts of terrorism is beyond me. In summary and IMO, Hezbollah it is a product of and example of duplicitous race based hatred.

To gain public support for their terrorism. Hamas has done the same for years. "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" is their followers' ideology.

Mike...for aguy who displays such poor taste in your car choices (as shown in your signature--read through this entire message) you are very insightful when it comes to politics.

I agree with you:

1. The Euros should just shut the f**k up and stay the hell out of Israel's business.

2. Israel has a right to self-survival and, as the only democratically elected secular government in the region, they deserve our fullsupport.

3. Chirac is not only an idiot, but he is an anti-Semite and a big COME-MIERDA.

And, BTW, I was just yanking your chain about the cars in your signature.

Oh you silly girl....:D

i saw a 240D on cnn.. again

Cold eyed appraisal...
 

Not a pleasant scenario this fellow (sounds Jewish) presents but he may have a point:

Hunker Down With History

By Richard Cohen
Tuesday, July 18, 2006
Washington Post

The greatest mistake Israel could make at the moment is to forget that Israel itself is a mistake. It is an honest mistake, a well-intentioned mistake, a mistake for which no one is culpable, but the idea of creating a nation of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims (and some Christians) has produced a century of warfare and terrorism of the sort we are seeing now. Israel fights Hezbollah in the north and Hamas in the south, but its most formidable enemy is history itself.

This is why the Israeli-Arab war, now transformed into the Israeli-Muslim war (Iran is not an Arab state), persists and widens. It is why the conflict mutates and festers. It is why Israel is now fighting an organization, Hezbollah, that did not exist 30 years ago and why Hezbollah is being supported by a nation, Iran, that was once a tacit ally of Israel's. The underlying, subterranean hatred of the Jewish state in the Islamic world just keeps bubbling to the surface. The leaders of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and some other Arab countries may condemn Hezbollah, but I doubt the proverbial man in their street shares that view.

There is no point in condemning Hezbollah. Zealots are not amenable to reason. And there's not much point, either, in condemning Hamas. It is a fetid, anti-Semitic outfit whose organizing principle is hatred of Israel. There is, though, a point in cautioning Israel to exercise restraint -- not for the sake of its enemies but for itself. Whatever happens, Israel must not use its military might to win back what it has already chosen to lose: the buffer zone in southern Lebanon and the Gaza Strip itself.

Hard-line critics of Ariel Sharon, the now-comatose Israeli leader who initiated the pullout from Gaza, always said this would happen: Gaza would become a terrorist haven. They said that the moderate Palestinian Authority would not be able to control the militants and that Gaza would be used to fire rockets into Israel and to launch terrorist raids. This is precisely what has happened.

It is also true, as some critics warned, that Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon was seen by its enemies -- and claimed by Hezbollah -- as a defeat for the mighty Jewish state. Hezbollah took credit for this, as well it should. Its persistent attacks bled Israel. In the end, Israel got out and the United Nations promised it a secure border. The Lebanese army would see to that. (And the check is in the mail.)

All that the critics warned has come true. But worse than what is happening now would be a retaking of those territories. That would put Israel smack back to where it was, subjugating a restless, angry population and having the world look on as it committed the inevitable sins of an occupying power. The smart choice is to pull back to defensible -- but hardly impervious -- borders. That includes getting out of most of the West Bank -- and waiting (and hoping) that history will get distracted and move on to something else. This will take some time, and in the meantime terrorism and rocket attacks will continue.

In his forthcoming book, "The War of the World," the admirably readable British historian Niall Ferguson devotes considerable space to the horrific history of the Jews in 19th- and 20th-century Europe. Never mind the Holocaust. In 1905 there were pogroms in 660 different places in Russia, and more than 800 Jews were killed -- all this in a period of less than two weeks. This was the reality of life for many of Europe's Jews.

Little wonder so many of them emigrated to the United States, Canada, Argentina or South Africa. Little wonder others embraced the dream of Zionism and went to Palestine, first a colony of Turkey and later of Britain. They were in effect running for their lives. Most of those who remained -- 97.5 percent of Poland's Jews, for instance -- were murdered in the Holocaust.

Another gifted British historian, Tony Judt, wraps up his recent book "Postwar" with an epilogue on how the sine qua non of the modern civilized state is recognition of the Holocaust. Much of the Islamic world, notably Iran under its Holocaust-denying president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, stands outside that circle, refusing to make even a little space for the Jews of Europe and, later, those from the Islamic world. They see Israel not as a mistake but as a crime. Until they change their view, the longest war of the 20th century will persist deep into the 21st. It is best for Israel to hunker down.

Exactly. I don't know the story so could someone please enlighten me on whose bright idea was this to put Israel in that geographic region to begin with. I mean thats like a black/white interracial couple moving into a house in which their neighbours on all four points of the compass are KKK/Neo nazi members. I don't care how much fire power they have or how much the law is on their side, they will not get a descent nights sleep from day one!

Israel is doomed to fight these battles for centuries.

Israelis look like a bunch of battle hardened people. So much for the promise land.

Somebody was looking for a challenge, I guess
 

Back in the forties the powers that were deciding such things must have been trying to win a bet. "Hey, lets send all of the down-trodden European Jews that Hitler missed to the Middle East. I bet we can make it work if we really try. . ."

Of course these were some of the same folks who had thought that creating Iraq out of a bunch of warring tribes would also make sense.

I guess nobody can really blame the Israelis for being preemptive.

I'll take that as a compliment. :D

This pretty much hits the nail on the head, and is the truth for the extremists on each side of the argument. There are a lot of people who have a vested interest in the conflict continuing because as long as the conflict continues they have relevance and power. Using religion as a cover for expanding political influence is as old as religion itself.

It all started with the British during WW1, when T.E. Lawrence (a.k.a. Lawrence of Arabia) was the instigator that caused the Arab revolt in the territory of Palestine (back then Palestine referred to Israel, Jordan, West Bank and Gaza) that pushed out the Turks (who are Muslim, but not Arab)
The UK was awarded control of "Palestine" throught the League of Nations (old name for the UN).

Again, an exert from Wikipedia regarding the mandate:

During World War I the British had made two promises regarding territory in the Middle East. Britain had promised the local Arabs, through Lawrence of Arabia, independence for a united Arab country covering most of the Arab Middle East, in exchange for their supporting the British; and Britain had promised to create and foster a Jewish national home as laid out in the Balfour Declaration, 1917.
---
So, the British promised the same land to both the Arabs and the Jews. :silly:
Not only that, but then the British continued their rule over their "colonies" until the late 40's. I understand that their prisons were brutal, and far worst than anything in modern history. They imprisoned anyone who rose up against British rule... death sentences were not unheard of. The worst part of it is, that the Arabs see Americans as British, of course we are not, but that is how they see us. So today, in Iraq, our fine soldiers are paying the price of British opression.

Anyways, back to Israel: In 1948, after the holocaust, there was a general vote in the UN that declared Israel a sovereign country. And so the story goes....

The big problem is Iran and their connection to all this. But that's for another discussion I guess.

BTW, back in '48, the UN almost put Israel in Africa!!!!!!!!!!!!! :P

Cmac thats a very good point. This whole mess is the Europeans fualt. Maybe Isreal should relocated to Europe somewhere, maybe take a nice chunk of Southern France, or Germany for that matter. They caused this mess, why do we have to clean it up?:rolleyes:


No US troops should get involved, if I were Bush I would say flat out we are not sending anything. If Europe wants to send something thats up to them, they are more the capable of sending a peace keeping force. If not let Isreal do whatever they want.

Message to the EU; this is your fualt, FIX IT, you old world racists SOB's.

You know, some people are going to start calling you an anti-semite now.

Why? Isreal is more the capable of dealing with those idiots. I don't want to be in between them. Let Isreal extract some blood, I have no problem with that.

That's right. I agree 100%. There is no reason for the US to get directly involved in this war unless Iran decides to play. Israel can surely take care of Syria without the US' help. An Israel/Iran war will be bloody without the US. After all, this IS a proxy war between the US and Iran(whisper:Russia). Fortunaltely for Israel, American military equipment and superior battlefield and HUMINT experience make this more like a KO in favor of the good guys.

This HUMINT experience you speak of has been systematically destroyed because they weren't telling the boss the things he wanted to hear.

And what's up with all this bloodthirst anyway?

I was talking about Israel's HUMINT. But either way, I wouldn't call America's HUMINT "systematically destroyed". As per your question, if you are referring to my comments, label me whichever way you like, but I'd rather be informed than clueless.

Don't you know? They are our friend! We have to go and help them, and support them. Don't we? Huh? Don't we?

Southern France wont work, the arabs that live there would start a holy war to drive them into the sea. The Germany idea has merit on many levels however. Leave it to a real estate guy to come up with that one. :-D

Well, Israel has probably found their HUMINT to be useful, so it's probably as reliable as it can be. It seems to me the CIA has been cut down and reformed so many times now, they have no more HUMINT. Even the new head is an electronics guy. Seems systematic enough to me.

I don't think I was referring to you specifically with the "bloodthirst" comment; rather there seems to be a consensus here that all this killing is good and will resolve something. What does that have to do with informed vs. clueless?

From ONLY a historical view - Given the way Israel operates with respect to borders... I would recommend an Island. Not to isolate them (look at England - and it works fine) but rather to keep the border.

Somehow I imagine they would only find a way to make it worse.

The heart of Europe (where wars are now forbiden) would be a perfect place for Isreal.

I also think that in another decade or ten they will be able to coexist peacefully with the arabs, the turks, the kurds, and the persians, right where they are now.

Heck... I say build them an island!

Like Here: http://guide.theemiratesnetwork.com/living/dubai/the_palm_islands.php

(I know, the link is ironic... but you get the point) ;)

yep, it's all about the land, isn't it.

http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimage...pw_sign_22.gif

A candle in the darkness?
 

By Ahmed Al-Jarallah
Editor-in-Chief, the Arab Times


LEBANON is under attack from Israel. Its economic infrastructure is being destroyed. Lebanese politicians cannot hide their feelings because Hassan Nasrallah has done some grave miscalculations under instructions from the outside. Nasrallah has dragged Lebanon and its people into misfortune. In spite of the destruction caused by Israel, Lebanese politicians don’t want to be frank with their people and tell them that they should not support Nasrallah’s decision to declare war on Israel. Nasrallah has hijacked the authority of the Lebanese government to have control over the people of Lebanon while Lebanese politicians continue to remain mute spectators without voicing their true feelings. Maybe they are afraid their popularity will take a beating if they confront Israel.

These politicians don’t know the public opinion. They don’t know the views of the Lebanese people towards the current happenings. If there are a correct statistics Lebanese politicians will know that their people are suffering from the division of authority between Nasrallah and the legitimate government. If they count the number of those who have the power of the state in various areas, Lebanese politicians will know that a ship captained by two men cannot reach its destination safely. The people of Lebanon know that their security has been violated and the political decisions of their country are divided among more than one authority.

The fate of the Lebanese is in the hands of a handful of reckless adventurers, who have prevented Arabs from making well-judged decisions. These adventurers have forced Saudi Arabia to issue a statement holding them responsible for the current episode of confrontation with Israel. Saudi Arabia’s stance on this issue has made Arab leaders fight each other during the Arab Summit. Arab leaders should be frank in admitting the sufferings of the people of Lebanon. For over 58 years Arabs have been trying to fight Israel. During this period they took a decision according to international resolutions to ensure there was no war. However, recently some organizations like the Hezbollah and Hamas Movement have been trying to violate these resolutions by calling for war.

This is the reason why Lebanon and Palestine have turned into battlegrounds for certain foreign countries at the expense of their own people. Unfortunately Iran and Syria are fighting the international community, especially the United States, in Lebanon and Palestine. Nobody is benefiting from this conflict, except Tehran and Damascus, which are using this issue to solve their problems with the international community without any care for the blood that is being shed in Lebanon and Palestine. The ultimate sufferers in the ongoing crisis are Lebanon and Palestine, which are back to square one.

So many awful opinions in this response... I don't even know where to begin.
Nobody, and I mean nobody, should ever use Europe as an example for peace. I think the Europeans have served as an example of what NOT to do to achieve peace. If there weren't so many US bases stationed in Europe, and if it wasn't for the WW2 reparations treaties to limit the size of the militaries of certain European countries, Europe would have self-imploded by now. Furthermore, I don't think your idea of placing Jews in the middle of Europe will fix the problem... do you remember what happened the last time they lived there? Finally, Israel co-exists with Egypt, Jordan and Turkey just fine. These countries are not the root of the problem as they have Judicial Law in place. The countries that are a problem: Iran, Iraq, Syria. They have Islamic Law. (i.e, chop both of your hands off if you're caught stealing, or, beating your wife because she looked at another man). Islamicism is part of the problem, not Islam.

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!

Part of my job is re locating people.;) Germany couldn't really say no, it could be an interesting solution.


Don't worry Gotta, if Isreal was losing I'd be screaming to send in the Marines!:cool: Whether we like it or not we are the only ones who will go to bat for them when the **** hits the fan. I see nothing wrong with that.

That's more like it.

Why can't Israel just take out everybody around them? I'm sure they can do that pretty rapidly if they showed no restraint.

Because the Arabs would exterminate them in about 5 days... until we were made to step in... Then you would have WW3.

Bad idea. See my island idea. It's perfect. This way when they build their wall they won't have to go on other people's land. Perfect.