Turns Out, We Do Torture - Page 11 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

t walgamuth · #**151** 02-10-2008, 12:26 PM

No not at all.

My position has not changed. We should adhere to our own standards about the right way to behave.....not let the other side set our standards.

Tom W

aklim · #**152** 02-10-2008, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

We should adhere to our own standards about the right way to behave.....not let the other side set our standards.

So if we agreed to swords at dawn and I show up with a gun, you plan on fighting me with your sword since we agreed on swords in spite of me showing up with a gun?

Botnst · #**153** 02-10-2008, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

....
In McCains case we had jet fighters and helicopters and they had ak 47s and land mines. If one of our pilots was shot down they had a tendency to treat them as if they were war criminals, because in their minds that was what they were.

Who is to say they are wrong?

Tom W

The Geneva Conventions and due process.

B

aklim · #**154** 02-10-2008, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

The Geneva Conventions and due process.

B

Only if you win and you get to drag then to this stupid court

732002 · #**155** 02-10-2008, 01:38 PM

Does waterboarding get you accurate information? If not we have
nothing to gain.

Since we already use waterboarding in training we should be testing. Give the
trainee a secret and see if they give it up or lie.

aklim · #**156** 02-10-2008, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 732002

Does waterboarding get you accurate information? If not we have nothing to gain.

Information obtained from torture is ALWAYS suspect. Most information should not be taken wholesale. Neither should information obtained under from torture. Say we lowball the thing and figure that 10% is accurate and 90% is just to get you to stop the torture. Isn't that more than when you started out with? Say 1 piece of info is good and 9 are bad after verification. What did you have in the beginning? ZERO. In my book 1 is more than ZERO.

As to gain, well, besides the info, we get practice so we refine our techniques of extracting information. Maybe next time, we will get 15% accuracy. Besides, I'm sure somebody will find it fun to harm their enemy. After all, it's not like we are hurting our friends. They are the enemy. They treat us as such. Why should we give them any better? The GC was there so that we would have some assurance that our people, as POWs would be better treated. Did the enemy agree to that? If not, what have we got to lose?

RichC · #**157** 02-10-2008, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

So if we agreed to swords at dawn and I show up with a gun, you plan on fighting me with your sword since we agreed on swords in spite of me showing up with a gun?

It would be better than the alternative.

He brings a gun.
So we go get a grenade launcher.
Then he gets a tank.
And we bring a rocket.
Then he brings a biological weapon.
Then we bring a nuclear weapon.

Where does it stop ?

Are you starting to see the need for the Geneva Convention ?

RichC · #**158** 02-10-2008, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

The GC was there so that we would have some assurance that our people, as POWs would be better treated. Did the enemy agree to that? If not, what have we got to lose?

Becoming the terrorists ourselves.

Medmech · #**159** 02-10-2008, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

It would be better than the alternative.

He brings a gun.
So we go get a grenade launcher.
Then he gets a tank.
And we bring a rocket.
Then he brings a biological weapon.
Then we bring a nuclear weapon.

Where does it stop ?

Are you starting to see the need for the Geneva Convention ?

In recent history most bad guys and their cause were stopped with a Tomahawk, B-2 bombers and Men in Black.

What is your opinion of the Bosnia action?

aklim · #**160** 02-10-2008, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

It would be better than the alternative.

Where does it stop ?

Are you starting to see the need for the Geneva Convention ?

You'd rather die? I'd rather live.

When the enemy is dead.

Haven't yet. All I see it do is hamstring the side that plays by the rules and gives the other side an advantage they could exploit.

Oh, there is the Pyhrric victory for the "good" side. That and $0.50 might get you a can of soda.

aklim · #**161** 02-10-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

Becoming the terrorists ourselves.

So you'd rather die and have your Pyhrric victory?

aklim · #**162** 02-10-2008, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howitzer

What is your opinion of the Bosnia action?

Question, what did we get out of Bosnia? What is the strategic value? I haven't read up much on it so I'm not sure but I don't see very much value in what we did. Not saying there isn't, just that I didn't see it. I suppose if I went back and read it up, it might make sense but do you have the cliff notes?

Botnst · #**163** 02-10-2008, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

It would be better than the alternative.

He brings a gun.
So we go get a grenade launcher.
Then he gets a tank.
And we bring a rocket.
Then he brings a biological weapon.
Then we bring a nuclear weapon.

Where does it stop ?

Are you starting to see the need for the Geneva Convention ?

Where it always stops: Death or surrender. Better them than us, too.

B

RichC · #**164** 02-10-2008, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

You'd rather die? I'd rather live.

When the enemy is dead.

Haven't yet. All I see it do is hamstring the side that plays by the rules and gives the other side an advantage they could exploit.

Oh, there is the Pyhrric victory for the "good" side. That and $0.50 might get you a can of soda.

.

You still do not see the point.

If each side continues to escalate violence,
neither side will win.

Everybody dies.

That is why people like me try to get people like you to understand
where violence will get you.
6 foot under the ground, right beside the guy you were trying to kill.

It does no one any good.
The only way to win is not to play.

RichC · #**165** 02-10-2008, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Where it always stops: Death or surrender. Better them than us, too.

B

Name one war where there was only casualties on one side.

Nobody wins.
There is only more dead people on one side than the other.

The only true death is in principals.
At what expense do you want to win ?

Join the military, go help them escallate the war.
I think your chances of seeing your next birthday will be decreased.

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