Turns Out, We Do Torture - Page 7 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Medmech · #91 02-07-2008, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Txjake

"Remember the Salem witch trials ?

This situation is no different.
We are torturing people we are afraid of.
They thought they had a good enough reason for it then.
And some people think we have good enough reason now."

I am sorry to say this, but that statement makes you sound like have a mental disorder......

right

RLTW

John Doe · #92 02-07-2008, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTI

A few "waterboarding" factoids:

It's a classic "old school" technique, first documented in 14th century writings as "tormenta de toca" and made popular during the Italian (not Spanish) Inquisition. The procedure had two major virtues: If done properly, it was not lethal and it left no scars or signs of injury.

Over the years, the technique was improved upon by the Dutch in the 17th Century East Indies, where they would slowly fill a captured enemy's throat with water.

Going "underground" in the 19th Century, it regained use in the 20th. The French used it in Algiers, Japanese and US used it in WWII, Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, UK used in against Arabs and Jews in the middle east. South American countries Chile and Argentina called it the Asian Torture.

Waterboarding is one of six "enhanced techniques" approved for use:

1. The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him.

2. Attention Slap: An open-handed slap aimed at causing pain and triggering fear.

3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.

4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions.

5. The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water.

6. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.

There does not appear to be much evidence, if any, that the Nazis or Soviets employed it.

CIA officers that were subjected to the procedure in training lasted an average of 14 seconds. It was reported that Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess.

I am curious as to why you posted this, because to me it makes waterboarding seem less torturous than alternatives.

RichC · #93 02-07-2008, 05:06 PM

.

I am completely calm.
I am really not wound up.

This is fun for me.

You guys would be extreamly hard pressed to make me angry.

My worse fear is that some of you actually believe some of your statements.
But then I realize you just got them from someone else, and are
repeating them here.

And the Salem with trials is completely relevent in this arguement about torture.

In each case people were torturing each other.
Trying to get them to confess to something.
The torturer felt justified by thinking that the situation was serious enough to warrant torture of another person.

When people look back at these two events a hundred years from now
they will see them as quite simmilar.
I am sure they will wind up in the same book of the study of torture sometime in the future.

Explain how the analogy is not correct ?

------------------------
And yes I am mentally Ill.
Quite mentally ill.
Bipolar disorder.
Like Beethoven, Winston Churchill, and Ralph Waldo Emmerson.
--------------------------

But I am not mentally ill enough to think that it is OK for
one human to torture another.

.

MTI · #94 02-07-2008, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Doe

I am curious as to why you posted this, because to me it makes waterboarding seem less torturous than alternatives.

Different points of view will react differently to the same information, but I put it out there merely as information.

For some, deer hunting is not a sport, while boxing is . . . oral sex isn't sexual relations . . . you know . .

How an individual, not the Department of Justice, views torture, may be a personal matter.

John Doe · #95 02-07-2008, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

.

You dweebs

I would caution you to remove this direct insult before a mod sees it and gives you an infraction.

cmac2012 · #96 02-07-2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Doe

I misunderstood you--I thought you meant it was unlikely someone here could 'imagine if one of your sons, daughters, ect....was affected first hand by a terrorist' and make a decision from that vantage point.

OK, I'll put you back on my "favorable" list.

The whole "terrorist who knows where a nuclear device is that is set to go off in 24 hours stretches credulity.

Since they are going to have a hard time actually getting their hands on a nuke, seems like they wouldn't want to take any chance of it not being used as they wish. Best avenue for that would be to blow it up on a boat in a major harbor.

It just does not make sense that they would bring it into Canada or Mexico and then smuggle it across the border to be placed in some desired target location. Too much could go wrong, and they don't want to have to detonate the thing in some semi-isolated place.

Our harbors strike me as pretty porous. We know that very few containers actually get checked. I could imagine a couple of fools in a container with a nuke, a porta-potty, sufficient food and water, maybe a lead lining of the container to inhibit radiation detection. If they could get a GPS unit to work under those circumstances, they could rig a sensor outside and camoflage it, all they would have to do is u-ulate in New York harbor while they push the button.

I mean if 16 Chinese guys can hide in a container and get into the US, how hard would it be to smuggle a nuke on one? And the funds promised to upgrade container security have not been delivered.

cmac2012 · #97 02-07-2008, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

I have not studdied Vietnam enough to comment on it.

?!?

First post I recall of yours had you putting up the hang-man "smilie" along with blazing uzis regarding Jane Fonda. I was thinking, "Jeez, I wonder if this guy was a POW in Nam." Then I find out you were born years after it ended.

It would be nice if we were always the good guys, just by the very fact of showing up. We are not.

Nixon was seriously contemplating blowing up the dikes in Nam (a war crime) and using Nukes. Kissinger disagreed with both. Nixon said (on tape): "Damnit Henry, I just want you to think big."

Fonda's trip was organized because of suspicions that the dikes were going to be bombed.

RichC · #98 02-07-2008, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by connerm

RichC,
Too bad, but your island fantasy utopia ain't happening. Face it, you will always live on a planet in a country with every possible luxury and have neighbors in the world who hate you for it and want to cut your head off and hear you drown in your own blood while they videotape it for the world to watch.

So because other countries hate us for having all these luxurys
we need to destroy them so they dont have anyting.

Wouldent that make them even more envious and willing to fight.

Wouldent that mean the answer would be to try and help them up a little.

People want to kill each other because they are sick.
Both sides, not just one.
You are a sick for wanting to kill them
As they are sick for wanting to kill you.

RichC

.

jaoneill · #99 02-07-2008, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

So because other countries hate us for having all these luxurys
we need to destroy them so they dont have anyting.

Wouldent that make them even more envious and willing to fight.

Wouldent that mean the answer would be to try and help them up a little.

People want to kill each other because they are sick.
Both sides, not just one.
You are a sick for wanting to kill them
As they are sick for wanting to kill you.

RichC

.

You really don't get it lad

Jim

RichC · #**100** 02-07-2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaoneill

You really don't get it lad

Jim

What dont I get ?

connerm · #**101** 02-07-2008, 06:47 PM

cmac2012,
I'm not worried about our reputation in the world. The rest of the world already hates us as much as possible. So what? History will judge us by our ability to survive in a very dangerous world. I'm just hopeful the judges are not Shia or Wahabi.

t walgamuth · #**102** 02-07-2008, 07:30 PM

I disagree.

The rest of the world does NOT hate us. A large part of the world at present is ignoring our leader because he is a lame duck and has insulted about every ally and neutral country in the world already. They are waiting til he is gone in hopes of us electing someone who has a clue about international relations.

Our fearless leader made statements that allow you the luxury of believing that that is true so you will not have to think on any more complex levels than just to "NUKE "EM TILL THEY GLOW!".

Since we aspire to be the leaders of the world we need to set a good standard.

I don't know about the specifics of waterboarding. I suspect that it is the least of the gruesome methods being employed by certain folks acting "in their minds" in our interest, including some in our structure and some that are our allies.

Tom W

John Doe · #**103** 02-07-2008, 07:36 PM

Right on, Tom

MTI · #**104** 02-07-2008, 07:42 PM

Since we're discussing a legal, non-lethal form of interrogation, as described by our leaders . . . and it is a procedure which more than a few folks here have no hesitation in utilizing or condoning . . .

just why is it that the government doesn't use it, and the other five enhanced methods of interrogation, more often and in non-CIA applications?