Turns Out, We Do Torture - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Medmech · #31 02-06-2008, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTI

The "GC" argument is specious . . is the US concerned that al Qaeda is going to bring war crimes charges or treaty violations against it in the Hague? Please, that's a justification that demonstrates an inoperable moral compass.

"non-uniformed combatant"

In other words the GC does not apply, no grey matter there.

Also this is not a matter of the GC, the people (aclu) pounding the media drum of upset about is extraordinary rendition flights and waterboarding taking place in CONUS, which have been taking place since 1995 btw.

connerm · #32 02-06-2008, 02:45 PM

Its really distasteful to me that there are so many "blame America first" Americans. The majority of the responses to MTI's original post are from Americans who write the kind of stuff of which I am proud. The Daily Kos, and Democratic Underground would generate more sympathetic comments, I think.

Bill Wood · #33 02-06-2008, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by connerm

Its really distasteful to me that there are so many "blame America first" Americans.

I could not agree more.

MTI · #34 02-06-2008, 08:46 PM

The label "blame America first" . . . implies that there is animus towards America, which is an easy label to utilize when the goal is to create a "us versus them" mentality.

However, instead of laying the "blame America first" label, consider the possibility that the position is more along the lines of "America is better than that" as the motivation for taking an anti-torture (or as the CIA calls it "particularly harsh interrogation technique") point of view.

In light of the number and nature of the countries that believe waterboarding or other forms of coercieve interrogation IS appropriate, put me on the side that believes that America is better than that.

cmac2012 · #35 02-06-2008, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waybomb

Should have done it more times.
Extreme torture? Pouring water over your head while you have a towel on? Whatever.

C'mon. If a bunch of guys were doing that to you and you had no assurance that they were going to stop in time, you'd have a different POV on it.

Waterboarding is not 'simulated' drowning, it's actual drowning, stopped short of actual death (usually).

And most everyone who's done interrogation for any length of time agrees that torture doesn't work well. Does give wanne be tough guys like Bush-o-mon a sense of power and 'we're kicking butt now. . . '

KSM has been confessing to crimes on 6 continents since they waterboarded him. Turns out he was in Dallas in November of '63. Hmmmm . . . . . .

cmac2012 · #36 02-06-2008, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cudaspaz

I look at it this way, what if it were your Mother, Daughter, Wife, Sister, Son, Father, or best friend somewhere with a camera and a rusty machete on him.
You caught a suspect that was involved but he won't talk.

Now are you gonna ask him nicely for the location, or are you gonna roll up the sleeves and work him over a bit?

I know if it were someone I loved, I would use whatever I could get my hands on to make that sucker talk and I would expect the government to do the same.

These suckers are blowing themselves up and taking as many innocent lives they can with them.

I'm sure the terrorist recruiting halls would be barren if the suicides were nice, slow and painful instead of instant kaboom!

If it works, go for it, but do it slow and painful.

Funny thing is, is that the gov don't have to tell us everything they do to get information from these scum bags.
We just hear about the stuff that leaks.

To the naysayers, I ask what is your solution?
How do we quickly get information from these pukes?

Do we just let them go to kill again?
Do we keep them for bargaining chips to be used by other killers?

What would you want done if it were a personal loved one of yours they had hidden away with a bunch of stinking rapists and murderers?

Would you sing playschool songs to them and let them play with puppy dogs and kittens until their soul softens, or would you crank up the 220 and give them a jolt that makes their teeth crack so they consider talking next time you ask the question?

The instances you speculate on are so unlikely to actually happen that they are about useless in debate about whether or not to use waterboading or other torture.

One of the head interrogators during the Vietnam war and other conflicts since has spoken out on the ineffectiveness of torture. He says that by isolating prisoners and building up rapport, there were able to get reliable infor simply by getting messages from the guy's family to him, and simple stuff like that.

Of course if I catch someone with a rusty knife to the throat of someone I love I'm going to do my best to disarm, kill, whatever. It's a bogus hypothetical, not far from: "We find a guy -- we know he knows where a nuclear bomb is hidden that is set to go off in 24 hours . . . . "

Yeah, right.

cmac2012 · #37 02-06-2008, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by connerm

Its really distasteful to me that there are so many "blame America first" Americans. The majority of the responses to MTI's original post are from Americans who write the kind of stuff of which I am proud. The Daily Kos, and Democratic Underground would generate more sympathetic comments, I think.

This is a seriously tired and worn out line. We have no control over what other people do. We have control, some anyway, of what we do.

In order to take the high road, you have to know what taking the low road would be, or have some idea, and guard against it.

Amazing, I never read the Daily Kos, DU, etc. and yet I'm frequently accused of being one of their lackeys.

What did Reagan say about being the shining city on a hill, or something like that? We don't achieve that status by acting like a bunch of arrogant thugs who know best about how the rest of the world should live.

connerm · #38 02-06-2008, 09:29 PM

MTI,
Is your position that America is like every other country that uses torture (as you titled this thread) or is your position is that America is better than other countries that use torture (as described in your last response)? Another question for you... Who would you rather have win the war on terror? Islamofacists who would behead you and your mother and father or the U.S. Marines?

The fundamental issue here is the value of life. Americans value life and do things to the enemy to preserve life. The enemy does not value life only death and destruction which is why they don't care about sending unsuspecting children and mentally unstable people into public spaces to blow themselves up. There is really no point in reasoning with these animals. Our enemy has no respect for anything leaving them with nothing for which to bargain.

Hatterasguy · #39 02-06-2008, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

This is a seriously tired and worn out line. We have no control over what other people do. We have control, some anyway, of what we do.

In order to take the high road, you have to know what taking the low road would be, or have some idea, and guard against it.

Amazing, I never read the Daily Kos, DU, etc. and yet I'm frequently accused of being one of their lackeys.

What did Reagan say about being the shining city on a hill, or something like that? We don't achieve that status by acting like a bunch of arrogant thugs who know best about how the rest of the world should live.

I don't give a damn about how the rest of the world lives, but I do give a damn about attacks on this country. If slapping around some moron will get us important information that could prevent an attack, then I'm glad the CIA has the balls to do whats needed.

connerm · #40 02-06-2008, 09:36 PM

You're wrong Hatterasguy...and insensitive. We need to build rapport and get to know them and reason with them. They're really just like you and me just misunderstood. I'm really glad you're not in charge.

Hatterasguy · #41 02-06-2008, 09:44 PM

You can't reason with people who from the time they are born have one goal in life, to kill infidels. You cannot use our modern western logic on them, they think like its the 14th century. If they stayed in their own country and were not hell bent on killing as many of us as they can I wouldn't give a care, its not our concern. But now it is, and the only reasoning they understand is force.

A 5.56 bullit through their head is the best way to "build rapport" and "reason" with them.

If I was president I would have the head of every AL qaeda leader we have caught on a pike on the White House lawn. Hows is that for sensitive?

waybomb · #42 02-06-2008, 09:53 PM

It is sensitive. You could have put them sticking out of buckets of pigs blood.

Hatterasguy · #43 02-06-2008, 09:56 PM

See I'm a very sensitive guy.

Medmech · #44 02-07-2008, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Waterboarding is not 'simulated' drowning, it's actual drowning, stopped short of actual death (usually).

.

wrong

732002 · #45 02-07-2008, 09:36 AM

I don't see being against torture as anti American. If anything it is
defending our values.

Torture will get information but not accurate information. Look at
the Vietnam POW confessions to war crimes, Witch confessions etc.

McCain is not a loony liberal!