Turns Out, We Do Torture - Page 9 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

cmac2012 · #**121** 02-08-2008, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

The winner defines war crime. That's why Vietnam hasn't prosecuted guards that tortured folks like Jon McCain.

And who has prosecuted John McCain for bombing, from a high speed jet no less, a people, a nation, who never harmed or threatened him?

We would sit still for such a thing? Or be gentle with the perpetrator?

I think not.

Botnst · #**122** 02-08-2008, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

I agree with TW's reply. I gather that we are much more popular in Indonesia than other Muslim countries because of our aid after the Tsunami.

People are not fools all over the planet. We are not only surviving better than the rest of the world, we are throwing huge amounts of resources on various bonfires of pleasure: NASCAR, jetskies, RVs, where to stop? Some of those resources are virtually seized from local residents in various regions much poorer than us.

THE WISE MAN LEARNS MORE FROM HIS ENEMIES THAN THE FOOL DOES FROM HIS FRIENDS. - Franklin

One can learn from one's enemies without embracing them or their cause.

aklim · #**123** 02-08-2008, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

I gather that we are much more popular in Indonesia than other Muslim countries because of our aid after the Tsunami.

People are not fools all over the planet. We are not only surviving better than the rest of the world, we are throwing huge amounts of resources on various bonfires of pleasure: NASCAR, jetskies, RVs, where to stop? Some of those resources are virtually seized from local residents in various regions much poorer than us.

As long as the money is flowing, sure we are popular. Go to a bar and announce that drinks are on you. You'd be popular till the money ran out.

Like those one step down on the ladder from us are doing any different. How about 2 steps down? See above.

cmac2012 · #**124** 02-08-2008, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Txjake

How would have bombing the dikes have been anymore of a war crime than the bombing of Dresden or Tokyo?

If Hanoi Jane was there because of that, it is truly a shame then that Nixon didn't let LeMay loose with the B52s. She is a true enemy of the US. I was born then, and remember how she betrayed her country.....

It would have been a war crime of a similar nature. Estimates were that a few hundred thousand civilians would be killed and Kissinger told Nixon of this. In the case of Germany and Japan, we were dealing with very serious and deadly enemies, who had attacked us and our allies leaving no room for doubt. Vietnam was engaged in a civil war, and a clear majority backed Ho Chi Minh from the earliest days. Our puppets there were corrupt fools.

Fonda was starry eyed and naive, and has apologized repeatedly for sitting on that anti-aircraft gun.

Sorry man, the people who let patriotic zeal get the best of them and send us on that idiotic course of ruination in Vietnam betrayed our country far more than Fonda.

One big, prolonged war crime.

cmac2012 · #**125** 02-08-2008, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

One can learn from one's enemies without embracing them or their cause.

I have no problem with that.

mgburg · #**126** 02-09-2008, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

...One of the head interrogators during the Vietnam war and other conflicts since has spoken out on the ineffectiveness of torture. He says that by isolating prisoners and building up rapport, there were able to get reliable infor simply by getting messages from the guy's family to him, and simple stuff like that...Yeah, right.

First off...who is this "One of the head interrogators" that you're quoting?

Second...what "other conflicts since..." has this individual been involved in and if so, to what level of confidentiality has he broken by saying what he has?

Third...What, exactly, was "his" success rate in getting the enemy to talk by hugging and "coom-by-yahing" their little tushies? Was the enemy "combatant" a hard-@55 or just uncooperative for the time being?

The way you're treated by your captors has a lot to do with how well you behave, or don't.

I don't believe for one minute our side went, "Name, rank, serial number and oh, by the way, before you head for your bed, grab this towel, put it over your head and we'll see you on the other side of that sound-proof wall."

The press and the left-leaning loonies in Congress have their undies all bunched up over less than a dozen individuals that would have been pushing daisies if their original captors had been anyone else than Americans.

Let's not forget that WE ARE THE GOOD GUYS, and no one will be any better than what we have in the field, put on the field, and have buried in those fields.

And, again, if it takes waterboarding, fingernails on a blackboard, coffee-enamas or GAWD-KNOWS-WHAT...so be it...we're alive because someone else is doing a job that no one else wants to do...and they are already an American, to boot!

aklim · #**127** 02-09-2008, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgburg

First off...who is this "One of the head interrogators" that you're quoting?

Second...what "other conflicts since..." has this individual been involved in and if so, to what level of confidentiality has he broken by saying what he has?

Third...What, exactly, was "his" success rate in getting the enemy to talk by hugging and "coom-by-yahing" their little tushies? Was the enemy "combatant" a hard-@55 or just uncooperative for the time being?

I think you missed the fourth. What is the point of info if it's usefulness has expired. Sure, it is nice to know where something WAS. Much better to know where something IS. By the time you hop and skip around to getting the info, if it is too late, is it worth much?

MTI · #**128** 02-09-2008, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgburg

Let's not forget that WE ARE THE GOOD GUYS

Because we say so and if you disagree, we'll kick your country's ass.

Botnst · #**129** 02-09-2008, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

And who has prosecuted John McCain for bombing, from a high speed jet no less, a people, a nation, who never harmed or threatened him?

We would sit still for such a thing? Or be gentle with the perpetrator?

I think not.

What were McCain's targets? If they were legit military targets then there is no Geneva Conventions beef.

aklim · #**130** 02-09-2008, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

What were McCain's targets? If they were legit military targets then there is no Geneva Conventions beef.

Considering the nature of the war, how would you say whether the target was legit? If they hid an artillery piece in a village, would that be a legit target? If they used a village as a base, would that village be a legit target?

Besides, WGAS about that GC rag. Apparently the other side didn't. So why should we care about it?

t walgamuth · #**131** 02-09-2008, 09:25 AM

There was a guest editorial in this mornings paper. It said the waterboarding has been thought to be torture by every previous US administration.

That seems to be proof enough to me.

This administration has proven itself over and over to believe that it is above the law.

Tom W

aklim · #**132** 02-09-2008, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

There was a guest editorial in this mornings paper. It said the waterboarding has been thought to be torture by every previous US administration.

That seems to be proof enough to me. This administration has proven itself over and over to believe that it is above the law.

Tom W

Was every previous US Administration dealing with the same issues that this one is? Maybe they had the luxury of being nice because they weren't under fire. Besides, why do we care about those people? They are the enemy. They have and will do worse to us. Nothing we do or won't do will change that.

That's proof? Or is it your justification?

Botnst · #**133** 02-09-2008, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Considering the nature of the war, how would you say whether the target was legit? If they hid an artillery piece in a village, would that be a legit target? If they used a village as a base, would that village be a legit target?

Besides, WGAS about that GC rag. Apparently the other side didn't. So why should we care about it?

It's spelled-out in the Geneva Conventions, of which we are signatories. Essentially, non-military targets are out. There are exceptions to that.

aklim · #**134** 02-09-2008, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

It's spelled-out in the Geneva Conventions, of which we are signatories. Essentially, non-military targets are out. There are exceptions to that.

OK. What do you see as the aim of the GC then? What is it trying to achieve?

Botnst · #**135** 02-09-2008, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

OK. What do you see as the aim of the GC then? What is it trying to achieve?

It's a codification of the rules of chivalry as applied to war between states. It has a definite western European bias due to a shared common origin of culture, religion and philosophy. It has been successfully imposed on conquered people around the world, with some exceptions.

B