"What would I want to get rid of it for?" - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Edward Wyatt · #16 08-02-2009, 03:37 PM

Unfortunatly most people look at automobiles as an appliance, nothing more than transportation from point to point.

With the low level of driver interaction and poor quality of most mass produced cars people just don't get into it like they used to.

BodhiBenz1987 · #17 08-02-2009, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

The folks who cannot see the benefits of this program are simply blind to the fact that most of the people in this country are incapable of repairing an older vehicle at a reasonable cost.

I guess you're right. I still the the program was poorly executed and slapdash. Even if it does work out for the people who participated in it, what's the long-term benefit? What happens when all the clunkers are gone, or at least all the ones people want to trade in?

I'll admit that my perspective is skewed by the fact that I am very sentimental about cars, even crappy ones. And I am very touchy about abject waste. My tune would be much different if they were parting these vehicles out or donating them to charity. But I do not see how giving people a fleeting incentive to rush into purchasing a vehicle while throwing away a reasonable machine is going to help a deeply damaged industry and economy over the long term. The automakers will get a temporary boost, then fill the lots back up with more new cars that will just sit there as they have the past few months.

Oracle12345 · #18 08-02-2009, 03:57 PM

the way that car technology is going this program will fail simply because the bottom line is cars are becoming more and more complex making repairing them harder and harder for a lot of people who dont have the knowledge or tools to repair them. More electric vehicles, hybrids will be the future of cars. There will be petrol cars out there but not too many. SO when these hybirds and electric vehicles start needing repairs they will tommorows clunkers since we all know anything complete electronic breaks and is expensive to repair.

These "new cars" will need repair and most people will chose to buy a new car instead a fix a good running car thats mor suited for them. Today a car is a no different than a appliance in most people minds: why fix it when I can buy something new.

pawoSD · #19 08-02-2009, 04:04 PM

As I said in one of the many other of these threads here on the forum.....people are going to be dumping mostly domestic SUV's and pickups.....and picking up foreign vehicles like toyotas, hyundais, kias, hondas, nissans, vw's, etc etc.... so the domestic auto makers will likely lose even more of their existing customer base (even if it was just selling replacement parts to people with those cars)....plus, they will lose the new sale on a replacement car. I forsee a shift of about 70%-80% of the cars "clunked" being domestics, and 70+% of their replacements being foreign autos. Just watch. In fact, all but one of every person I have seen or known that has recently bought a new car, went from a foreign to another new foreign, or domestic to foreign. Only one stayed domestic.

450slcguy · #20 08-02-2009, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BodhiBenz1987

I get more than you think I get. Throwing cash back into a failed infrastructure doesn't fix the problem. A debt-drenched economy will fail; it cannot sustain itself indefinitely. It has failed already and taking taxpayers' money and throwing it out there to entice the consumer base to go back to it's irresponsible spending habits of a glorious yesteryear does no good. Want people to buy stuff? Find a way to get them to produce stuff. I'm not against people buying new cars, by any means ... obviously when people buy new cars, the auto industry is able to maintain more jobs, keeping more people employed, giving those people money to put back into the economy, etc. But people need to buy cars with money they've earned, not with debt or a handout, and they need to buy them responsibly. The clunkers piled up at dealerships are an example of the irresponsibility of automakers and consumers that worked for a few years but helped sink the industry -- and of the mentality that helped sink the entire country. The program designed to get rid of them is more of the same.

I'm not ignorant to capitalism and economy. I'm not saying that everyone should drive their car for 500,000 miles ... clearly that would render the industry dead and would take away some of the romance of car ownership (buying a car is in a way a right of passage). People have been buying new cars for decades. They have been driving, selling, parting out, and eventually crushing, cars, too ... I have no objection to this. But wastefulness and lack of foresight created a situation in which the system stopped working ... in addition to that, the American mentality that you "deserve" to retire when you're 50 as well as a manufacturing base that has moved out of our country and into China and Mexico added fuel to the fire. It didn't stop working because a few people got shy about spending money and just need a little cutesy push.

I thought it was cool that the BMW owner had some sentimentality and a sense of "why throw it away if it works?" Maybe it's the way I was raised. There's a time to retire an item and purchase a new one, or a nice used one if you like, whether it's a car, a TV or a pair of pants. You don't throw away a good pair of jeans because they're a year old and you "deserve" a newer, more stylish pair of jeans. That mentality has worked for me as far as financial stability. When something craps out, or really becomes inadequate, I'll go out and buy a quality item from a quality store (I'll pay more to buy it from a reputable, helpful store rather than buy it from some vague cyber discount bin). I never expect the government to pay me to do it.

Sorry if my post came off as implying that everyone who doesn't drive their car to 500k is an idiot. That wasn't my point. I know enough about capitalism to know that wouldn't work.

This is program is not about you or me. It's about an economy that nearly collapsed and has of yet to recover. You can hide your head in the sand and let it collapse, as was done in the great depression, or you can offer loans and incentives to help save, stimulate and grow it.

The people who are able to take advantage of this program are not the ones who are in foreclousure, unemployed, or on welfare. If you applying for a car loan nowadays, your gonna need real good credit. Few if any banks are giving loans to people who can't afford them.

From what I've seen and read so far, the vast majority of qualifying cars in this program are past their practical lifespan in terms of mechanical reliability and/or fuel economy. Sure many could squeeze another year or two out of their old car, but in the end they'll be worthless and will need to be replaced.

Edward Wyatt · #21 08-02-2009, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450slcguy

This is program is not about you or me. It's about an economy that nearly collapsed and has of yet to recover. You can hide your head in the sand and let it collapse, as was done in the great depression, or you can offer loans and incentives to help save, stimulate and grow it.

The people who are able to take advantage of this program are not the ones who are in foreclousure, unemployed, or on welfare. If you applying for a car loan nowadays, your gonna need real good credit. Few if any banks are giving loans to people who can't afford them.

From what I've seen and read so far, the vast majority of qualifying cars in this program are past their practical lifespan in terms of mechanical reliability and/or fuel economy. Sure many could squeeze another year or two out of their old car, but in the end they'll be worthless and will need to be replaced.

Just like 80% of the cars in our sigs.

The people who take advantage of this program might not be on welfare, but they are still taking a handout from the taxpayer just the same.

I haven't seen a car blown up on youtube that looked like a real clunker, in fact, most of them are nicer than many of our old clunker MB's.

Strife · #22 08-02-2009, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas H

No one is forced to participate.

Yet.

450slcguy · #23 08-02-2009, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BodhiBenz1987

I'll admit that my perspective is skewed by the fact that I am very sentimental about cars, even crappy ones. And I am very touchy about abject waste. My tune would be much different if they were parting these vehicles out or donating them to charity. But I do not see how giving people a fleeting incentive to rush into purchasing a vehicle while throwing away a reasonable machine is going to help a deeply damaged industry and economy over the long term. The automakers will get a temporary boost, then fill the lots back up with more new cars that will just sit there as they have the past few months.

Yes, your emotions are skewing your logic.

Your local junkyard will be overflowing with parts car in the next year.

Most of the "machines" being traded are at the end or near the end of their lifespan. High mileage, low fuel efficency clunkers.

As for the damged industry, Americans build and sell more car than anyone in the world. Most "foreign cars" including Toyota's, Honda, Nissan's, Subaru's are built in the USA with many domestic parts.

Hatterasguy · #24 08-02-2009, 05:17 PM

Every video that I have seen was of a junker, most were heading to the scrap yard anyway. I mean come on how much life does an 85 Jeep thats beat with 330k miles on it have left? If the car is worth more than $4,500 thier not going to take advantage of the program, they will trade it.

I don't give a damn about taking some junk off the road early, what bothers me is they are taking my $4,500 to do it, when I don't have a new car myself.

450slcguy · #25 08-02-2009, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Wyatt

Just like 80% of the cars in our sigs.

The people who take advantage of this program might not be on welfare, but they are still taking a handout from the taxpayer just the same.

Unless you're real keen on unemployment, recession and possible depression, consider it the best investment the government can make for the recovery of our national economy.

Hatterasguy · #26 08-02-2009, 05:19 PM

It does create a lot of jobs. Someone has to scrap and sell off those cars, and that makes work.

Junk yards are probably loving this.

BodhiBenz1987 · #27 08-02-2009, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450slcguy

From what I've seen and read so far, the vast majority of qualifying cars in this program are past their practical lifespan in terms of mechanical reliability and/or fuel economy. Sure many could squeeze another year or two out of their old car, but in the end they'll be worthless and will need to be replaced.

Well, this probably varies by area. A lot of the ones I'm looking at or reading about are nice cars. I mean, nice cars. Even the dealerships were saying amazed they were at how nice some of them were. Some of the cars had near zero purpose, but CFC made little distinction between worthless hunks of metal and a smoothly running Infiniti I30 with perfect leather (one that got turned in around here). Even if you're getting a gas-guzzler off the road, why are you throwing away perfect leather? Strip the parts and generate business for parts stores and repair facilities.

I agree with what you say as far as this being about the economy, but I said as much in my long reply to your first post about my not getting it. It is about the economy. My opinion, and it is an opinion, is that this is a poor answer that at best will just have no lasting effect on the automotive industry. It sold a few cars, but what did it do for the underlying problem? I guarantee you it won't get the Chrysler and GM plants that just closed near me up and running again. It really was almost a liquidation rather than a stimulus ... it cleared out a lot of inventory, which will be replaced. How are they going to sell the next batch when there aren't any clunkers left to be traded in? What's the permanent fix in this?

And it is, in a very small way, about you and I ... and everyone else who pays taxes. Anyone who pays taxes and votes has the right to laud or $^%& about any government program. My problems with the program are two-fold: I think it does nothing for the economy, and that is a legitimate complaint on my part. My other problem is just a personal rant: I'm bitter that my hard-earned money is going to reward people who bought inefficient cars, and the automakers that made them. If I thought it would help the economy at all, I could easily live with the second part.

BodhiBenz1987 · #28 08-02-2009, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450slcguy

Your local junkyard will be overflowing with parts car in the next year.

I may be incorrect, but I believe dealerships and junkyards are prohibited from selling any part on the car ... all of it must be destroyed.

450slcguy · #29 08-02-2009, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

Junk yards are probably loving this.

And I suspect many of us will be more than happy to ravage the clunkers to maintain our vintage non-clunker MB's.

The few negatives of the clunkers program will soon turn into a bonanza for all of us and our cars. Not only in spare parts, but also in the resale values of our newly restored vintage cars.

People really need to stop focusing on the negatives, and realize this program is good in many ways for everyone. For a measly few billion dollars, we'll help save an industry, help revitalize the economy, reduce unemployment, increase mpg, and reduce pollution.

It's a brillant plan anyway you look at it.

BodhiBenz1987 · #30 08-02-2009, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450slcguy

Yes, your emotions are skewing your logic.

And for whatever it's worth, while emotions can be dangerous when used entirely in place of logic, I don't see much point in a life without any sentiment at all. I don't think my rantings are entirely without logic. I am an intelligent, and not entirely crazy (yet), person who has a different opinion than yours ... and I do know some less-emotionally bound people who share my perspective, or a similar one. For that matter I know several people who disagree with my opinion on the matter, but respect it.

So I admit to being a sentimental soul, but I don't think my thoughts should be written off.