Fundamentalism and free societies - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

pj67coll · #1 11-17-2009, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

However, neither of those facts explain the reason why there have been no creative Islamic philosophers since the 1400's and little intellectual innovation that has transformed Islamic societies in the way that European societies were turned upside down.

I have heard something to the effect that islam had it's "reformation" at around that time except that the fundamentalist whackjobs won out and that was the end of any meaningful development in islamic societies since. Thus, once again it's religious fundamentalism winning out that closes the lid on civilizational advance.

In western society the englightenment won out. Possibly because of the precediing reformation which destroyed the credibility of fundamentalist christianity thus opening up the door for reason.

Quote:

My developing hypothesis is that Muslim societies lacked enough smart single men.

Why? Beacuse of some innate biological deficiency or because of the stultifying effects of islam?

- Peter.

kerry · #2 11-17-2009, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj67coll

Why? Beacuse of some innate biological deficiency or because of the stultifying effects of islam?

- Peter.

Because celibacy has no authorized legitimacy within Islam. Legitimate life is family life.
Don't know what happened to gays. Gays could escape to a monastic life or a single life in the Christian west.

kerry · #3 11-17-2009, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj67coll

I have heard something to the effect that islam had it's "reformation" at around that time except that the fundamentalist whackjobs won out and that was the end of any meaningful development in islamic societies since. Thus, once again it's religious fundamentalism winning out that closes the lid on civilizational advance.

In western society the englightenment won out. Possibly because of the precediing reformation which destroyed the credibility of fundamentalist christianity thus opening up the door for reason.

- Peter.

Not sure about the Islamic reformation. Certainly independent philosophical inquiry died out in Islam but I don't think I'd call that the a defeated reformation since the reformation in Christianity wasn't a resurgence of independent philosophical inquiry but a rejection of centralized authority in religious interpretation and politics which Islam never had.

pj67coll · #4 11-17-2009, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Not sure about the Islamic reformation. Certainly independent philosophical inquiry died out in Islam but I don't think I'd call that the a defeated reformation since the reformation in Christianity wasn't a resurgence of independent philosophical inquiry but a rejection of centralized authority in religious interpretation and politics which Islam never had.

Don't remember the exact details I'm afraid. . It was either on NPR or some debate Hitchens was in on Youtube and it was a while ago. Basically the contention was that since the hardliners had triumphed in Islam the accpetance of the Koran and it's centralized authority as the only knowledge worth having meant the end of civilizational progress within islamic societies. Whereas in Europe the reformation - by calling religion into question (if you have one contradicting view of the religious authority, then why not a whole lot more) essentially paved the way for secular thought to reject the whole religious edifice altogether, and so you have the rise of science. I'm paraphrasing hugely here but I think the gist is clear.

- Peter.