If hetero behavior had not expanded so much in the last few millennium, there would be fewer people practicing it. With fewer practicing it, there are fewer to molest these innocent young girls, rape women and commit other acts of sexual abuse against women.

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Seems like he's already been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion.

But I'm not trying to defend him, and certainly not child molesters; there is nothing even neutral that can be said for such creatures.

My point, which seems to be lost in the rhetoric, is that we don't know all the facts. No one really does. And the real issue, at least to me, is what did Paterno KNOW and when did he know it?

The established facts are that he heard about the allegations second-hand. That is called "hearsay" and in our country it's not admissible in a court of law (for all sorts of good reasons designed to protect the process of a fair trial; basically, we want to hear from people with actual knowledge, not rumors repeated).

He relayed this information to his superiors, likely with the understanding that they would conduct a full and fair investigation. He later testified before a grand jury.

That's all a decade ago.

There is no state law that would require him to call the police; we're not talking about people working with children, we're talking about a subordinate of his alleged to have committed serious, ugly crimes. Legally, Paterno's clear. But that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing beyond that, what he *should* have done. And to me the first question in that realm comes right back to what did he ACTUALLY KNOW??

Kick it back the other way. There's someone you've known for years, worked with, good guy, never been an issue one way or the other, you'd probably consider him a friend. A third party comes to you with a story, ugly, horrific allegations of conduct that, if true, will destroy his career and family, and rightly so. But those SAME allegations will have much the same effect, even if they are NOT true. So you follow the chain and report what you have heard.

And if nothing comes of it, what is the proper course? To go ahead and call the cops? Remember, you don't have ANY actual knowledge, just something someone else said. Maybe they hate him, maybe they have a grudge...you don't know, right? So if you call the cops, you may destroy his career without any basis.


The point being...I don't know all of the facts, and neither does anyone else here. But it strikes me that there are too many ready and willing to kick him to the curb based on what they are assuming about what he knew, including the university, which now seems to be engaged more in a CYA witch hunt than any real interest in finding the truth.

Certainly, if Paterno had a meaningful reason to know what was going on (at least something more than the blind allegations of a third party), then everyone is right, he failed miserably. But even that has not been demonstrated, at least not in the reports blasting around the 'net.

And if Jopa actually did have a reason to know what Sandusky was up to, nothing in his history would suggest that he would have kept quiet. It just seems completely out of character to imagine him scheming in a back room to hush up over such horrible crimes just to protect the football program.


All I'm saying is, can't we just wait and see how the facts prove out before we tie him to a tree, disembowel him and let the birds peck out his eyes?

You are correct about "us" knowing all the facts, but someone inside the University evidently knows them. This is why I was hesitant to say anything in my first post of this thread and why I predicated in my second.

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But we do have the Grand Jury Presentment. The entire document in pdf form is on MSNBC right now.

It's very graphic and precise.

Why so much concern about the rush to judgement of Paterno?

Where is your outrage about the victims?

Paterno and other officials at Penn State did the absolute minimum.

The red-headed guy, McQueary, then a graduate assistant, witnessed Sandusky’s rape of a young boy in a shower room of the football facility in 2002. He witnessed the 10 year old being anally raped.

And not only did he not stop it, he left. Just skedaddled. Think about that for a minute. A kid is getting assaulted, and with a hopeful heart he sees someone who might be able to help him. And the guy leaves.

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Why should we expect more? Sandusky was a somebody, McQueray was a nobody. Why risk his own skin and career to go against Sandusky? Just report it to the boss and let it die.

Here is the question. What is McQueray LEGALLY expected to do? Report it to Paterno or the cops?

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I don't know how the law applies to him, but I find it morally reprehensible and unconscionable.

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I would think it does apply to him. I believe teachers and nurses are required to report any suspicion of abuse to the cops. No ifs, ands or buts. We might be BFF but if I hear of it as a teacher even via what somebody else wrote, I have to send it off. I believe there was a case like that a few years back.

and apparently employed at this time. Guess that he did succeed in looking after #1

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I never said I was not outraged about the victims and I'll thank you not to make assumptions about me. I've said more than once that child molestation is a horrible crime.

I had not seen the GJ summary, thank you for noting it was online. For others who would like to review it, it is here: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/Sandusky.pdf

Reading that, it seems that Sandusky really is little more than scum, or the scum that scum insults and craps on. Indeed, he set up a foundation to help disadvantaged young boys, which seems to be where he got most of his victims.

As to Paterno, this is the salient passage:

Since that summarizes Paterno's own testimony, then I would conclude that he had a meaningful reason to know what occurred, and I would also agree that he had a greater duty to follow up to ensure that an appropriate investigation occurred, and if that included reporting what he had heard to the police, then he should have done so. Legally he was in the clear, but morally, wow, did he fail.

Of course when you read the GJ summary, you'll also find out that the police ignored some of the later reports, too. Indeed, it seems likely that had Paterno called the police, it would have been the University Police, who had four years EARLIER closed an investigation as to the sixth victim:

It's deplorable that everyone treated this internally. Even the mother: why didn't she call the state police or even her local police department? Why call the university police (doesn't everyone pretty much regard them as little more than rent-a-cops anyway)?


All of that said, had Paterno followed up in 2002 when the incident was reported to him, it wouldn't have spared any of the other victims. All 8 were into the Sandusky abuse scheme by then anyway.


Overall, the GJ summary is really, really sad. There is more than enough blame to go around. Indeed, it seems like Penn State's culture nearly parrots the catholic church regarding pedophile priests...but don't get me started on that.

You got that right.

I don't see how these guys can put the reputation of the institution above the protection of children.

It seems more than anything else, the protection of children should be paramount.

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Perhaps they are trying to put their own personal reputation above others.

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Did Paterno tell Mike to call the police?

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What does it matter? Shouldn't Mike have simply called the police and let the cards fall where they may? Perhaps Mike was afraid of "rocking the boat" which might endanger his career.

If JoPa was responsible, Mike certainly should be as responsible, if not more.

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Agreed. I can't imagine why any of them wouldn't call the police unless they were either close friends of the perpetrator or afraid of damaging Penn State's reputation.

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Why did the RC church do what it did in spite of all the lip service they paid to telling the truth and damn the consequences? Same thing. Protect themselves. Such a scandal can't be good for anyone's career so sweep it under the rug and hope it goes away till they are gone. Why would you expect more of them?

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And it's the American way, I suppose, now there are riots going on at Penn State over his being fired. {sigh}

Penn State trustees fire Paterno, students riot - College football- NBC Sports