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aklim · #**166** 10-15-2012, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daw_two

I like seeing "butterflies" in a woman.
Butterflies are free. Right?

Maybe, we ought to pass the bootle. What's your choice?

Where would the butterfly be?

Every day, a male co-worker walks up very close to a lady standing at the coffee machine, inhales a big breath of air and tells her that her hair smells nice.

After a week of this, she can't stand it anymore, takes her complaint to a supervisor in Human Resources and states that she wants to file a sexual harassment grievance against him.

The Human Resources supervisor is puzzled by this decision and asks,"What's sexually threatening about a co-worker telling you your hair smells nice?"

The woman replies, "It's Keith, the midget."

engatwork · #**167** 10-15-2012, 06:46 PM

^LOL

Quote:

You and me both brother!!

You've met my wife?

cmbdiesel · #**168** 10-15-2012, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by engatwork

^LOL

You've met my wife?

....bites tongue, gives straight answer...

Was referring to Mrs Diesel...

spdrun · #**169** 10-15-2012, 06:51 PM

Well, if he could reach her hair to sniff it, she was probably a midget as well. Perfect pairing there

aklim · #**170** 10-15-2012, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

....bites tongue, gives straight answer...

Was referring to Mrs Diesel...

TTIWWP

aklim · #**171** 10-15-2012, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spdrun

Well, if he could reach her hair to sniff it, she was probably a midget as well. Perfect pairing there

You are assuming every girl shaves the kitty

spdrun · #**172** 10-15-2012, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

You are assuming every girl shaves the kitty

Gotcha

Benzasaurus · #**173** 10-15-2012, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Fair enough. I'll try to remember that.

I guess I would ask you how you think I can afford to leave my wife who is battering me daily if I have no money and no prospects for a job. Sure, I could check in to a shelter like you suggested. But what then? Can I stay there for the rest of my natural life? It might work if I was getting a quick crash course on being a CNA which is less than 6 month course so I could get a job. OTOH, if I was unwilling to do something like that, I doubt I could stay at that shelter for the rest of my life, can I?

Until I decide I am going to make a move to better myself, I doubt anyone can help me. I have to want to do it and be able to do it. Till then, it is academic.

All right. Tell me this. I refuse to leave my wife or my job or whatever it is to find a better life and rather put up with the abuse for whatever reason. Who is to blame? Sure, the perpetrator of the abuse is to blame for the abuse but who do you hold responsible for me wanting to stay? I say I am responsible for my shortcomings. Not you, not the hooker on 5th and Main and not the cruel world. If I say "Well, I rather put up with the backhand or punch as opposed to going out and making a new life for myself because I think it is easier this way.", who is responsible for that? Besides me, that is.

IMO, there are going to be 2 main components of any action. The means and the will. Without the means, all the will in the world cannot achieve it short of a stroke of luck. With the means, we now have to contend if the person has the will or not. Without the means, I am not sure how someone can achieve anything short of a stroke of luck and I am not a big believer in luck. I believe we have to make our own luck by doing something about it. If one has the means and the will, one can succeed sooner or later. Without means, I personally see no way of success short of dumb luck. Can you?

I view it all as the same. I feel we are objectified everywhere we go. IOW, the PRINCIPLE is the same. At work, I am little more than a cash cow for the boss to milk if I am an employee. As an employer, the worker is little more than a vehicle for my financial success. Objectification isn't just sexual to me. It permeates every part of our society.

I feel I have already answered all your points above, so look over my last response again. The summary is:

-shelters are temporary. They are there to help people get back on their feet (they do that through their own support networks and with help and encouragement from other organizations).

-there are all kinds of reasons victims stay (I covered this before). You are victim blaming and claiming it's the victim's "shortcomings"—"the perpetrator of the abuse is to blame for the abuse but who do you hold responsible for me wanting to stay? I say I am responsible for my shortcomings" but actually included in this quote is the admission that the abuser is at fault. What you are not understanding is that the abuser is at fault every time they abuse the victim, and part of the way abuse works is to ensure victims stay. Ok. I'm done explaining that now. Really. I'm tired of repeating myself and I am not going to elaborate on this point any further since I have already made it clear enough that no one else is arguing against it but you.

-I don't think that "actions" work in terms of "means and will" the way you are schematizing them, but you know what, I'll meet you on that turf and show how even in your break-down of how that works your position is flawed (maybe there can be a new thread about free will and the nature of choice and action but I'm not doing philosophy in this one). Ok. With domestic abuse, both the "means" and the "will" of the victim are compromised.
Since you claim action is impossible without either one of those, a victim without either cannot leave easily if at all. Means is compromised physically, when they are physically trapped by their spouse or monitored through cell phone records, for example (there are other ways too). This is actually happening to people right now and change.org has a few petitions of victims trying to protest cell phone companies that charge them money (revealing victim's activity through credit card records very often, as well as it costing them $200) to end the contract/remove the abuser's name/change the number. Abusers actually trace their victims through phone call records. They see who they are calling and go there and given GPS shenanigans it could be worse in some situations. Now for "will": I've already talked about how even if you personally reject the role of psychology and its description of the mental damage inflicted on victims, there are still sufficient reasons for a victim's will to leave to be compromised: religious beliefs, cultural beliefs, desire to keep the family intact, and fear of extreme violence and reprisal. The last is the most common and fear for one's life is a powerful fear.

Look. I am DONE explaining domestic violence to you, especially because of something I will comment about below. If anyone else on this forum has a question about what I have laid out, I will answer them, but I sincerely doubt you are reading my arguments closely since I'm having to repeat them so I'm not going to continue this.

-finally, you're conflating consensual mutual instrumentality—the condition of being instrumental— and objectification. They're different. Again, see above.

spdrun · #**174** 10-15-2012, 08:16 PM

The cell phone thing seems extreme.

If the account is in the abused party's name, they can change the passwords.
If it's in the abuser's name, couldn't they just toss out their phone and replace with a pre-paid, without inflicting any damage to their credit?

Benzasaurus · #**175** 10-15-2012, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

I think the issue is that we can set one up but whether it will be used to potential is a different story. Men, being men, will be too ashamed to get help from being battered by a tiny little girl. I had a girl who thought I wouldn't hit her back a long time ago and she was wrong. It cost her a tooth to learn that lesson and me a sprained ankle to teach it.

Ummmm.... so as a community where is that you guys stand on someone either making a repugnant trollish joke about striking a woman so hard in the face that she lost a tooth, or, worse yet, someone actually gloating about doing that to some woman!? I cannot imagine what she would have had to have done to merit that short of threatening you with a knife and meaning it. And even so, I bet there are plenty of guys on this forum who would have sooner run away, called the cops, locked her in a room, restrained her or blockaded her or locked themselves in the car than do what you, Aklim, did.

I just don't think I should be the only one who is horrified by this. And frankly, Aklim, if you really think violence against women is funny or, worse, that this did happen and it is something you think you should brag to everyone about, I completely see why you blame victims of domestic abuse. Whether you're being a troll or you are a violent man (thanks again for describing in detail how you imagined my problems "if I were your husband and I was beating you") you are repugnant and the scum of the earth.

You are exactly what I was getting at earlier about how when men don't stand up for women's right to respect against offensive jokes (wherever that line lies for most guys I bet you've crossed it), they have no idea whose s***ty thinking and behaviour they might be validating. You, YOU are the violent asshat whose behaviour is normalized when no one tells you jokes about violence against women are NOT OK. It's no wonder you have no sympathy for Jim B., a man whose wife was a tyrannical dick and terrorized him. You are her equal and I really hope the other people reading this recognize that however awful she sounded, that is EXACTLY how awful you are.

Benzasaurus · #**176** 10-15-2012, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spdrun

The cell phone thing seems extreme.

If the account is in the abused party's name, they can change the passwords.
If it's in the abuser's name, couldn't they just toss out their phone and replace with a pre-paid, without inflicting any damage to their credit?

I think it's when it's in both's names—like when you have a family plan. The other person can claim they lost the password and reset the password whenever they like. Here are the petitions.

aklim · #**177** 10-15-2012, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzasaurus

Ummmm.... so as a community where is that you guys stand on someone either making a repugnant trollish joke about striking a woman so hard in the face that she lost a tooth, or, worse yet, someone actually gloating about doing that to some woman!? I cannot imagine what she would have had to have done to merit that short of threatening you with a knife and meaning it. And even so, I bet there are plenty of guys on this forum who would have sooner run away, called the cops, locked her in a room, restrained her or blockaded her or locked themselves in the car than did what you, Aklim, did.

I just don't think I should be the only one who is horrified by this. And frankly, Aklim, if you really think violence against women is funny or, worse, that this did happen and it is something you think you should brag to everyone about, I completely see why you blame victims of domestic abuse. Whether you're being a troll or you are a violent man (thanks again for describing in detail how you imagined my problems "if I were your husband and I was beating you") you are repugnant and the scum of the earth.

You are exactly what I was getting at earlier about how when men don't stand up for women's right to respect against offensive jokes (wherever that line lies for most guys I bet you've crossed it), they have no idea whose s***ty thinking and behaviour they might be validating. You, YOU are the violent asshat whose behaviour is normalized when no one tells you jokes about violence against women are NOT OK.

It's no wonder you have no sympathy for Jim B., a man whose wife was a tyrannical dick and terrorized him. You are her equal and I really hope the other people reading this recognize that however awful she sounded, that is EXACTLY how awful you are.

Can you explain to me why she was allowed to get physical with me with a pipe and I have to run while she is swinging it? Sorry, you behave like a moron and get physical with me, you bet I will try to harm you. I turned away and she threw wood at me. I warned her that was a freebie and the next one wasn't. She told me that I wouldn't hit a girl as she picked up another piece of wood. She was wrong. I punched and kicked her. I won't apologize for that. But do go on, I would love to hear why you think I should put up with such behavior. If she wasn't responsible for it, perhaps it was her parents that were to blame? Perhaps she had a bad childhood, mommy didn't love her enough, etc, etc?

And yet you have no comment for her because she is a woman and thus allowed to get physical without consequence? Perhaps the rules of violence only exist for men and are different for women? Sorry, you want to be equal, be equal. If she were a guy, I'd do the same to him had he come at me with a pipe or whatever. Man or woman, if you want to hit, you have to be prepared to take a few hits yourself. If you cannot, don't hit. It IS that simple or do you disagree again?

Please, women have also had jokes about men. Are you also offended with that or do women come again with different rules?

First off, all you have is Jim's side of the story. Second, he didn't take the proper precautions and got scammed. Third, he waited for 10 years before he finally decided he had to do something instead of seeing it escalate and taking a stand and either move out, divorce her, call for a mediator or referee or whatever. As I said, she didn't start out that way. He was a rug and thus it got to that point. And no, I have ZERO sympathy for people that stay in bad sitiations as long as they are adults. They make their bed, they lie in it. I have no interest in psychological claptrap either.

Benzasaurus · #**178** 10-15-2012, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Can you explain to me why she was allowed to get physical with me with a pipe and I have to run while she is swinging it? Sorry, you behave like a moron and get physical with me, you bet I will try to harm you. I turned away and she threw wood at me. I warned her that was a freebie and the next one wasn't. She told me that I wouldn't hit a girl as she picked up another piece of wood. She was wrong. I punched and kicked her. I won't apologize for that. But do go on, I would love to hear why you think I should put up with such behavior. If she wasn't responsible for it, perhaps it was her parents that were to blame? Perhaps she had a bad childhood, mommy didn't love her enough, etc, etc?

And yet you have no comment for her because she is a woman and thus allowed to get physical without consequence? Perhaps the rules of violence only exist for men and are different for women? Sorry, you want to be equal, be equal. If you were a guy, I'd do the same to you had you come at me with a pipe or whatever.

First off, all you have is Jim's side of the story. Second, he didn't take the proper precautions and got scammed. Third, he waited for 10 years before he finally decided he had to do something instead of seeing it escalate and taking a stand and either move out, divorce her, call for a mediator or referee or whatever. As I said, she didn't start out that way. He was a rug and thus it got to that point.

Read my post again: my point is that you either boasted about hitting someone (particularly someone weaker than you) so hard they lost a tooth and/or you played that story for laughs. That is the most offensive thing to me. You think that your tale of violence against women, with no context, was funny or worth bragging about here.

spdrun · #**179** 10-15-2012, 08:57 PM

Got to agree with AKLim on this one. If any adult came at me waving a pipe, they'd be very lucky not to have said pipe shoved down their throat.

This being said, how did he get within striking distance w/o grabbing the pipe away first, unless they were both waving pipes?

aklim · #**180** 10-15-2012, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzasaurus

Read my post again: my point is that you either boasted about hitting someone (particularly someone weaker than you) so hard they lost a tooth and/or you played that story for laughs. That is the most offensive thing to me. You think that your tale of violence against women, with no context, was funny or worth bragging about here.

WAIT A MINUTE. Now that she is considered weaker than me she gets a pass? So if I pick a fight with a heavyweight boxer, he is expected to run away because I am not as powerful as he is? Seriously?

The tale is simple. You hit, you could also get hit by someone who doesn't give a rip about you. And yes, I have a particularly sadistic streak when it comes to hurting those that get physical with me.