this is in mesa az. no 3 phase in residential. hes just very confused

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Firstly, you are correct that neutral and ground are the same, once you reach the panel. Statements to the contrary by people who should know better are simply argumentative and incorrect, as they typically are from this individual. Most of his posts should be ignored. They rarely contain anything of value.

The issue regarding neutral and ground is prior to arriving at the panel. If you're dealing with a true 240V appliance (my air compressor as an example), a three wire circuit consisting of two power leads and a ground is perfectly adequate and it meets the code. There is no neutral and there is no return of any current via the ground.

However, if you have a 240V appliance such as a dryer, whereby the heating elements operate at 240V and the timer and control circuits operate at 120V, a neutral is absolutely required to bring the current back to the panel. Expecting the ground to handle this task is dangerous and the code doesn't allow it. A ground, by definition, is the last line of defense between you and death and it can never carry any current unless there is a ground fault.

Once the two get back to the panel, nobody cares anymore...........the path to the transformer is the same.

Think of a shared neutral/ground to a single appliance as an extension of the buss bar in the panel, with neutral and ground branching off at the appliance itself

Sorry, but this statement is too general to be acceptable. It's absolutely not acceptable for a dryer, as an example.

This argument would allow the use of the ground wire to function as both the neutral and the ground. This isn't permitted for a good reason.

BTW how is that single pole transfer switch working for you Brian!

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1984 300TD 1981 240D

Since you are unable to utilize the forum software properly and respond to a quote in a suitable fashion, you get no response from me.

Most of what you post is erroneous and your statements above further support that conclusion.

How you manage to stay in business is beyond me..............

It is odd isn't it! For the past 25 years I have managed to make a good living, without advertising, in a highly educated, affluent area where there is plenty of competition. I just hope that nobody ever catches on to the fact that you don't need to hire trained professionals to do electrical work when you can just get free advice from lonely, barren men on an internet car forum who replace a receptacle once a year (after doing 3 hours of research). While business is somewhat slow at the moment, I hope that soon I will be able to afford a late 1980's rusty Dodge van for my company, as that is what all the successful businessmen are sporting these days!

Brian- even Mother Nature is capable of acknowledging she made a mistake, hence your inability to further your bloodline, so maybe you should try it too.

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1984 300TD 1981 240D

The reason business is slow is the fact that you have no clue as to how electricity functions and you choose to attack those members on the forum who are a bit sharper than you are. To call yourself a "trained professional" is truly ridiculous. Most of the members on the forum know more about electricity than you do. Those that pay you for your services are fools.

The mistake is generated by anyone who listens to any advice that you offer.

07-15-2012, 01:54 PM
Brian Carlton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retmil46
Sounds like that's set up for an older electric dryer. And also an older setup for the house - 200 amp feed has been the standard for some time now.

If memory serves, sometime back in the 90's they made a change to the NEC, such that on all new applicances and installs they did away with the older 3 prong plugs (that tied neutral and ground together), and mandated going to a 4 prong plug with a separate ground and neutral lead.

What you describe inside the breaker panel - ground and neutral being run to the same bus bar - is SOP.

Yep........old dryer and old house. No real need for anything more than 100A when the stove and the dryer are gas.

I can change the socket for the dryer to the four prong socket that fits the generator. Hopefully the cable is three wire with ground.

I never really understood the need for both neutral and ground wires being run separately if they both end up on the same bus bar.
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Foisted on your own petard! Don't worry Brian- I'm sure there is someone out there who needs advice on how to be a pompous, bitter, soon to be extinct, handyman! Why the edit? You should really do your Google searches before you make your "expert" statements.

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1984 300TD 1981 240D

Taking statements out of context, again, to support your argument? Why am I hardly surprised? You haven't an understanding of the discussion at hand, because you can't read and you choose to reference a completely separate discussion that isn't relevant.


I'd rather be a handyman who understands the code than an electrician who can barely write much less explain the code to others.

BTW, your inability to write properly comes through again...........there is no such statement as "foisted on your own petard". No surprise there. Hopefully nobody listens to anything you write. I certainly don't.

I have been an appliance technician for over 12 years. I have also re-wired a few dozen houses. Although I do not consider myself an electrician, I do know what I'm doing.

When you wire a Hotwater tank, there is no need for a neutral because there is nothing that needs 110v. On a stove, the clock, timers and fans all run off of one leg, while the other leg provides the heat part.

If you would simply dismantle a dryer at some point in your life, you would see that the neutral and the ground are tied together a few inches above the access panel

Th op asked for basic advice on a common electrical problem. Having run 100's of 220 lines for customers, I'd say that I am an expert.

Also to answer the different cord question: dryers are 30a, and stoves are 50a and that is why they have different cords. Also why a 220 window a/c would have a different one as well.

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#38 07-14-2012, 05:29 PM
The Clk Man
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatterasguy
Your solution is fine, but its 100% illegal because most people are stupid and back power the lines in the road. Remember the average person is a moron.

Fine for you, but if you ever move get rid of it.

You could also just get a double sided plug and plug the generator in to power the panel that way.

Are you an "Average" Person?
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#39 07-14-2012, 08:33 PM
Brian Carlton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatterasguy
Your solution is fine, but its 100% illegal because most people are stupid and back power the lines in the road. Remember the average person is a moron.

Fine for you, but if you ever move get rid of it.

You could also just get a double sided plug and plug the generator in to power the panel that way.

Yes, I'm fully aware it's not to code. But, since the installation isn't going to be permanent, I'm not too concerned about it.

I don't want to go the route of the double sided plug because the generator output is 30A and one double sided plug is going to be excessive for the 15A or 20A circuits in the house. However, what about simply making my own cable that goes from the generator's 30A receptacle to the 30A receptacle on the dryer? In that scenario, there is no overload to the line and the generator can feed both legs at the same time.
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Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt ----- Mark Twain

Since when is quoting your own post taking something out of context?
Yes brian- your lack of integrity is crystal clear! As well as your lack of knowledge about electricity. Perhaps if you continue to do electrical you can do everyone a favor and speed up the inevitable extinction of your inferior bloodline...................

You got me on the misspelling- I do not claim to be a wordsmith, nor do I use spellcheck. That of course invalidates any facts I have posted and obscures the fact that you are a cheapskate wannabe electrician with no integrity who would endanger others to save a buck. I'm sure you have the same standards for your "engineering" business.

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1984 300TD 1981 240D

Unfortunately, again, you don't understand what the post was attempting to do and the fact that there was no possibility of endangering others to save a buck.

But, again, thanks for posting some obscure BS that you really don't understand.

The world is full of people that you can take financial advantage of because you have a electrical license. Unfortunately, the possession of that license doesn't mean that you understand electrical circuits in any way. Your inability to back up your statements when challenged is obvious.

Now go out and ripoff some unsuspecting folks who don't know you...............

10ford, why are you so angry?

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He's not worth the time Eugene. You'll never get a straight answer that makes any sense out of him. He loves to chide anyone who might consider an alternative to what he deems as gospel.