Miata is very close to 50/50 balance -- actually might be slightly rear-biased depending on fuel level and passenger weight. Did you have winter tires or no-seasons on the thing?

All seasons. I never buy snow tires. We don't get that much snow here, generally.

The magazine testers say the're 5050 but I have weighed mine in preparation for autocross and it is heavy in front, I suppose that is without the spare and jack which are removed for autocross....maybe 30# or so. Put in the spare and a full tank of gas and you might be close to 50-50 with a 200# (me) driving it.

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

No surprise seeing as how complex and effective those early 4matics are...when they work of course.

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1982 300GD Carmine Red (DB3535) Cabriolet Parting Out
1990 300SEL Smoke Silver (Parting out)
1991 350SDL Blackberry Metallic (481)

"The thing is Bob, its not that I'm lazy...its that I just don't care."

SUV Disintegrated into Pieces by Head On Collision with 18 Wheeler - YouTube

Let up on the gas pedal of an SUV, and you are toast.

??? The SUV in question is just starting to climb a hill - odd time to let up on the gas. I see a driver who allowed his vehicle to drift to the left, placing his left tires onto a slipperier surface than the right tires, panicking, overcorrecting and bouncing off the truck on the right, before bounding off to the left. This couldn't happen in a car?

Point well taken. I have always appreciated the balance of a W123 on snow and ice.
The 1999 E300 that I had did not do well with its wide all season tires on snow, but when I brought a second set of rims and mounted snow tires....transforming!

__________________
Current:
1985 300D aka Miss Margaret
1991 300SE aka Alarice
1995 SL320 aka Samantha
1997 K1500 Silverado
Past:
1999 E300 ex-wife got it and let her son ruin it
1984 190 2.3 ex-wife got it and let her son destroy a great car
1985 300D (CA version) aka Maybelline lost to deer at high speed.
1981 300D aka Madeline (went to salvage at near 400k) rusty, yet best car I ever drove
Wishlist:
McFarlan TV6 (only a few privately owned)
ReVere with Rochester engine
1917 Premier (only one left)

The article makes some valid points but it amounts to a posture piece.

The significant detail is, as long as it is reasonable to get some traction, awd or 4wd does a better job at accelleration and cornering than 2wd, all things being equal. The article acknowledges this. The key reason for this is the chronic to critical under steer that occurs with rwd may be less so with awd/4wd.

In other words, if the car is on sheer ice, awd isn’t going to make a difference, but if there is some ability to get traction, awd will do a better job than 2wd. Unless there has been freezing rain, there is nearly always some traction possible on snowy roads.

But I agree that good winter tires make all the difference. I use Nokian WR on both my vehicles and they make a vast difference in winter performance. I also drive probably 10K miles or > a year on mountain roads with lots of snow and ice. Even with great tires, I’ll take the awd vehicle over the 2wd vehicle when there is snow and ice on the road.

Let's look at this statement.

Clearly, the 4wd vehicle does a better job at acceleration.

However, I fail to see how the 4wd vehicle can do a better job in cornering. The capability of the tire generating sufficient friction between the road surface and the face of the tread is the sole governing factor as to whether it rolls or skids. Whether that tire is powered is irrelevant. If the tire doesn't have sufficient friction, it will not follow the desired path of the driver, whether it has the capability of accelerating, or not.

I believe you confuse the capability to "accelerate and corner" on surfaces that provide the necessary traction with the true capability of cornering at the limit (which is really the only concern). At the limit, the driver has most assuredly removed his right foot from the go pedal and the vehicle is now, effectively, a moving body without any propulsion............thereby effectively rendering the argument for 4wd moot.

It is fascinating to watch how many folks believe in the cornering capability of a 4wd vehicle, simply because it can go faster in poor conditions. It fully explains why so many of them end up on their roofs.

I have only driven one vehicle with this system, and never gave it a workout, so I cannot vouch for its effectiveness, but it sounds interesting in theory:

SH-AWD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When you go into a slide with most any 4 wheel drive (AWD), people's natural tendency is to let up on the gas pedal. Doing this alone, is the worst thing one can do. Years ago, most cars were rear wheel drive, so when you let up on the gas, and kept your front wheels facing forward (steering in the direction), the rear wheels will drag (as in braking), and the front wheels will continue to roll. This causes the car to straighten out. It is also what most drivers will naturally do when they start sliding.

When you let up on the gas pedal with most 4 wheel drive (AWD), this causes all 4 wheels to, in effect, brake, which only makes the problem worse. That is why the SUV driver lost control of his vehicle and challenged the 18 wheeler. With 4 wheel drive (AWD), you actually want to maintain or slightly increase the gas, and steer in the direction. This should (with superior tires) put the car back on course (front wheels pulling in the direction and not sliding). The other alternative is not for people that cannot chew gum and walk at the same time. My 1997 Explorer, for example, had the emergency brake release left of the steering wheel and the pedal beneath it. You can let up on the gas if you pull the release button while using the parking brakes to slow down the rear wheels faster than the front while steering in the direction.

Most 4 wheel drive and AWD vehicles are truly lacking. The real 4 wheel drive cars (trucks) include the Jeep, the Rovers, Toyota Land Cruisers and Hummer to list a few. There is one major issue with every other 4 wheeler I can think of. They do not have a proper High/Low gearbox, which makes them way under-powered for many situations (and where they have a "low" it is not nearly low enough. Their "low" speeds may be as high as 85% of the high speeds. I will give you an example with my 1997 Explorer. It was a large V-8 with AWD, and the snowplows in my town would pile up about a foot of snow at the bottom of my driveway. This stuff is really heavy, and almost impossible to get thru. After struggling in "low" gear and lodging the car somewhat I found that I had to rock my way out. It came abundantly clear that you could easily burn out the transmission (because of its high gear, like any car) or the transfer case with this situation.

I had a Land Rover, and while not dependable (computer went out twice in its first year of existence), it truly is a great 4 wheel drive vehicle. In the lowest gear in low drive, the car could only manage 6-8 MPH. The Ford would do 60 in "low gear." I could have driven the Land Rover all day with no effort through the packed foot of snow (1 in 1000 of us may encounter situations we need to do stuff like this with any regularity). One more example about the Land Rover. I had this 4' x 4' x 4' evergreen bush about 20' from my concrete driveway. Even digging down a foot around the base of the shrub and using a 30', 30,000 pound nylon strap, the Land Rover showed no signs of extracating this bush. I had it in low-low and all 4 tires were spinning on the concrete and the truck started to go sideways. I stopped that follie in a hurry and had to dig this little bush out by hand.

Front wheel drives do just OK because of the 60-40 front to rear weight ratio. This advantage lessens when you put more weight in the rear (passengers).

Ford charges almost $3,000 for the priviledge of 4 wheel, but the unspoken part is that they had to spend twice for the muffler system. The transfer box gets in the way of the dual muffler system, so instead of costing $1,100-1,200 to replace, it is about twice that. Instead of one simple catalytic converter, my 1997 had two simple catalytic converters that went into one very costly catalytic converter in the middle with a bunch of extra oxygen sensors. The only one coming out on top in this deal is Ford.

I am highly unlikely to waste my money on another 4 wheeler. What is better for most people? Years ago, we bought a Ford Aerostar, brand new, so I bought only the features we needed. Vans are notorius for their light rear ends and problems in snow, so for $140, I bought Ford's "towing package." I forget what all it included, but one feature was the limited-slip differential. I believe Ford still offers this on their rear wheel drive vehicles, and maybe for about the same money. This Aerostar was a six cylinder, and it made the Explorer look foolish. The Aerostar had all-weather tires, not expensive ATVs, but in 10 inches of snow, I could push the pedal to the floor and this thing would take off like a rabbit and leave the Explorer in its dust, with very little slippage. Consider the added weight of the Explorer, with all the loss of power it faces with two gear boxes (and considering its high-high and high low trans) and four bulky wheels, it was a dog. The Aerostar also had a high ground clearance, and it outperformed the Explorer across the board. The differential on many of these AWD cars is "touring" gear ratios. The Explorer would turn 2,000 RPM at somewhere around 70 MPH if I remember correctly. In short, the Aerostar, despite its light rear end and limited slip differential has out-performed every 2 wheel front drive and every 4 wheel or AWD car I have owned, and for a lot less money.

It makes me wonder if there is any AWD car out there today that could beat the performance of a rear wheel drive, limited slip difference car. If it does, it probably is not worth the $3-5,000 or more you pay for the highly sophisticated systems on some cars. Many are still not proven. I still prefer to park my own car, and I still prefer driving my own car out of emergencies.

If you think 4wd is not better at cornering you probably have never went against one at the autocross. The subies are dominant in their class, beating out more powerful M3 BMWs as if they are air cooled VW beetles. If the subies had better weight distribution they would be even tougher.

Also you will note that after the 4wd turbine cars were so dominant at Indy they were outlawed at Indy and in F1. In off road ralleys they are the thing to have if you want to compete.

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Another person confused between "handling" and "traction".


There was and never will be an argument that the 4wd vehicle has more traction and is capable of faster acceleration in marginal conditions.

If a tire doesn't have the friction to the surface to prevent the vehicle from sliding, all the power available to rotate that tire won't accomplish a damn thing.

All your engineering expertise does not substitute for real world experience.

I understand the difference between traction and handling. Perhaps you don't understand that at the cornering limit it is a limited traction situation. Applying power coming out of a corner with four wheels is definately superior to applying it with two wheels keeping the car on its intended trajectory.

The same stability is applicable to snowy or icy conditions as well. Applying power with four wheels instead of two is inherently more stable.

Now with the limited power of my Miata the limited slip is probably adequate to apply all power available on asphalt or concrete with the sticky 1.3 G Hoosier tires. The Miata will spin on entry to a corner if the rear breaks traction due to a shock issue under heavy braking.

My Formula ford though with 110 hp and 1100# total weight (including the 200# driver) will spin instantaniously and comprehensively on injudicious power application in a corner even with the limited capablity of an open differential.

Throttle modulation is the only form of traction control available.

If you take the time to do some research you will find that this is a question that has been considered and tested by many of the car magazines over the years.

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

[QUOTE=
There was and never will be an argument that the 4wd vehicle has more traction and is capable of faster acceleration in marginal conditions.

[/QUOTE]


I am sorry to disagree but This is a factually incorrect statement.

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Unfortunately, you don't.

At the cornering limit, all the traction in the world won't help you if the tires cannot withstand the cornering force.

If they can..........you're not at the cornering limit and you can use some traction to assist you.

The only way you can apply power in a corner and get away with it is if, by definition, you are not at the cornering limit.


Sorry, but it is not more "stable". It simply provides more traction if the tires can provide the friction.

Of course the car magazines believe that they have more "stability". Just like you, they are not at the cornering limits.