I'll rephrase it for you in the affirmative:

A 4wd vehicle has more traction and is capable of faster acceleration under marginal conditions.


Can you comprehend that without calling it "factually incorrect"?

The biggest issue is not the debate over what a skilled driver can do with 4wd on a track, but what a DB 'thinks' he can do on a snowy road.
In that circumstance, any degree of increased traction in the moments before critical cornering limit are far overshadowed by too much speed and too little ability.
As Brian pointed out, when the question is 'will a 4wd turn better in the snow at cornering limit', the answer is no.
If the question is 'will a 4wd turn better in the snow during a situation where throttle is still being applied' the answer has to be maybe.
If too much throttle is applied (like a DB would do) then the drive wheels will spin, which eliminates the ability to steer and immediately reverts to the situation where you are beyond cornering limit.

We have probably all experienced the difference between front and rear wheel drive. With rear wheel, it is possible to be applying throttle, spinning the drive wheels, and still not be at cornering limit with your steering wheels.
Not always so with front wheel... application of throttle which causes any spin, immediately removes steering ability, and the vehicle goes wherever inertia and gravity want it to go.
4wd does the same, only with both ends of the vehicle.

Anecdotally, the vast majority of vehicles I have seen on their roofs/in the ditch/off in the woods during snow events were 4wd.
Watched a DB in a Subie demonstrate the potential of AWD one evening on I-70. Sloping highway, stop and go traffic, very slick snow. He nuked the throttle from a dead stop, got the tires spinning, and went directly sideways off the road.

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On some nights I still believe that a car with the fuel gauge on empty can run about fifty more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. - HST

1983 300SD - 305000
1984 Toyota Landcruiser - 190000
1994 GMC Jimmy - 203000

https://media.giphy.com/media/X3nnss8PAj5aU/giphy.gif

This has not been my experience, and would be entirely dependent upon what gear you are in. If you are in a suitably high gear, then feathering off the throttle is the best bet. IMHO. Giving more throttle in a slide situation is a great way to go ass over appetite. More throttle to your steering wheels in a snow sliding situation removes your ability to steer entirely.
Pulling the E-brake in a snow slide should only be done in a parking lot for fun.



Low range in the snow is a poor selection. What you want is the tallest gear you can use without stalling. Many years of driving in the snow, and much of that on the mountain jeep trails which lead to my cabin, taught me that.
I found this to be true with AWD, 4wd, RWD and FWD. Driven them all in places most people won't go. They all have their advantages and disadvantages.
Regardless of the drivetrain, applying too much power in snow is the best way to get stuck, but good.
One of the reasons the old Mercedes diesels are half decent in the snow is that they do not apply an overabundance of power to the wheels, just watch out when the turbo kicks in...

__________________
On some nights I still believe that a car with the fuel gauge on empty can run about fifty more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. - HST

1983 300SD - 305000
1984 Toyota Landcruiser - 190000
1994 GMC Jimmy - 203000

https://media.giphy.com/media/X3nnss8PAj5aU/giphy.gif

If you will not accept the tests by professional automotive journalists please offer what evidence you will accept. Professional engineering tests, perhaps? I am eager to apologize to you for disagreeing if you can provide good engineering proof.

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Show me some evidence............any evidence...........that a 4wd vehicle can perform better than a Rwd vehicle at the cornering limit.

I define the cornering limit at the precise speed and angle of turn whereby any additional applied torque to the axle or any further increase in the angle of turn or any additional speed will cause the tire to slide on the surface rather than roll.

You cannot provide any evidence because there isn't any. The only possibility of a 4wd vehicle "cornering better" than a 2wd vehicle is when the vehicle is below the cornering limit and the tire has the capability of accepting torque without sliding. I deliberately wrote "cornering better" in quotation marks because most folks, such as yourself, believe the vehicle is cornering better, when, in reality, it's simply going faster through the turn than an equivalent 2wd vehicle because it is not at its cornering limit.

There are a few very steep downhill circumstances where I found low range to be the best choice but they are kinda rare.

I've found the 300GD to be very impressive in the snow due to its mix of 4wd, low power, ground clearence and occasionally the lockers (hey, it was quite the storm the other month )
However as Brian has mentioned, cornering with 4wd is the same as 2wd when there is no traction. BUT when the road isn't a complete sheet of ice I have found that you do have much better steering control with 4wd. Note, this is with true 4wd and not AWD which are often controlled with electronics making them reactive systems (I.e something has to slip before the system engages)

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1982 300GD Carmine Red (DB3535) Cabriolet Parting Out
1990 300SEL Smoke Silver (Parting out)
1991 350SDL Blackberry Metallic (481)

"The thing is Bob, its not that I'm lazy...its that I just don't care."

The road doesn't need to have a "complete sheet of ice" for you to reach the cornering limit. In fact, just a bit of rain can do it. In the rain, take the vehicle up to about 95 mph and try to push it through a corner. You'll find the cornering limit very quickly and no amount of 4wd is going to prevent the inevitable.

The cornering limit is strictly depending on the friction between the tire and the road surface. The variables are the material on the surface, tread compound, wheel speed, and angle of the tire with respect to the direction of travel. All of the variables can be manipulated up and down to come up with different results.

At 100 mph, you better have no material on the surface or you better have minimal angle on the tire with respect to the direction of travel. No "sheet of ice" present here but the cornering limit will be easily found.

All correct however the fastest that i've ever managed to get the G to was 75 MPH and that was downhill at full throttle From the factory the top speed was rated at 81. 60 is my typical sunny day highway speed. Everything stated on previous pages about AWD owners being more likely to ditch themselves? I think a good portion of it comes from most stateside vehicles having more then enough (too much?) power.

__________________
1982 300GD Carmine Red (DB3535) Cabriolet Parting Out
1990 300SEL Smoke Silver (Parting out)
1991 350SDL Blackberry Metallic (481)

"The thing is Bob, its not that I'm lazy...its that I just don't care."

The 4wd gives them supreme confidence to accelerate with impunity. The huge hp numbers relative to weight also fuel this behavior. Finally, most of the gassers are extremely sensitive to the slightest throttle............almost impossible to feather it correctly.

It all falls apart at the cornering limit. At that point, and until the vehicle can slow, it's 0 wheel drive.

Once the high CG shltbox begins to spin, it's almost impossible to stop it from rolling if the speed is up.

Not all AWD cars are high-CG crapboxes. Though generally 4WD wagons in the US market are tarted up to resemble UPS trucks in order to sell to vain hausfraus who zOMG wouldn't be caught DEAD driving a STATION WAGON like their MOTHERS used to do in the 70s or 80s.

............and, therefore, less likely to roll.

I'll provide more evidence when you provide some evidence.

You have provided none just your own thought generated in a vacuum since you have never participated in any form of racing and always drive around at 55 mph to maximize your mpg (not that there is anything wrong with that).

I have given good evidence already of real world racing rule changes due to 4wd making 2wd obsolete.

At the indy 500 the 4wd STP turbines were still dominant after the first year even though they were restricted to smaller tires than the 2wd cars and restricted on the inlet reducing horsepower. In 1967 Parnelli took the outside on the first turn and simply drove around all the 2wd cars in front of him even though they were all the very best racing drivers in the best 2wd equipment available at the time because of the superior cornering power of the 4wd car.

It was much the same in 1968 even though the 4wd cars were forced to use smaller front wheel tires on front and rear and were forced to run smaller inlets to restrict the power of the turbine engines. I sat in the first turn high and watched them in qualifying. When they ran over the tunnel bump the 2wd cars wiggled on the edge of control and the 4wd cars simply absorbed the bump with no wiggle.

This all true even after considering that the additional weight of the front driving mechanisms is near 200# in a sport where every pound is significant to acceleration, cornering power and ultimately tire wear and fuel consumption.

your statement about cornering at the absolute limit might actually be theoretically true but the reality is that will never happen except in your mind since in real life it is all transitional and never in constant state perfect cornering. The surface is never perfectly smooth and you are either slowing down or speeding up in addition to cornering. I don't believe it is even true on a skid pad since the cornering scrub and mechanical and aero resistance requires constant application of power to maintain a constant speed and the application of power to two wheels instead of four upsets the balance causing the driven wheels to lose traction forcing a reduced speed compared to some theoretical cornering power with no power being applied.

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

All of your anecdotal stories about 4wd on off road courses and your experiences against 2wd vehicles all are below the cornering limit where 4wd can assist (as I have stated at least three times now). Furthermore, the discussion was never about off road courses where the drivers have some sense of the cornering limit and seek to stay close to it...........but below it.

The reality is that the cornering limit is absolutely found every day in the winter when some 4wd shltbox rolls onto its roof. They managed to cross right through the cornering limit because they had no idea where it was. Why don't you explain to them that the true cornering limit "never happened except in BC's mind"? I'd love to be there to listen to that stupidity.

In "real life" once you reach the cornering limit, the game is over.........2wd or 4wd until the rotational speed of the tires slows or the angle of the front wheels is turned to be more aligned with the direction of travel of the vehicle (as I have now explained three times without any capability of comprehension by you).

Apparently, this concept is impossible to understand for most people, including yourself and you wish to be deluded into thinking a 4wd is going to save you in snow and ice conditions because it has better cornering capability (which was the premise of the discussion). You've got a lot of company in that camp (most of the population). It's of no surprise to me.


You've conclusively shown your inability to read and comprehend what has been written in this thread when you attempted to refute this statement by calling it factually incorrect:

Clearly, all detailed explanations to you regarding the physics of the situation aren't going to be understood. We're done.

I didn't say give it the gas, and I was referring to the driving conditions when the SUV inadvertently challenged the semi in the video I posted earlier. The person lost control of that vehicle because they let up on the gas. For that person, it turned hopeless when they bumped the first truck. In that situation, you want to maintain the pedal and turn the wheel into the direction of the spin. At this point, there is no drag on the front wheels, but there will be more drag on the rear wheels (because they are going sideways a little bit). As far a parking lots go, one can use the parking brake to spin out the car in the parking lot, but one can also put drag on the rear wheels by using the parking brake. In either case, you are reproducing what a rear two wheel drive vehicle does naturally.

I agree that you choose an appropriate gear, but in the case of my driveway example, one does need a low gear in that case. This from a man who spent many years roaming and skiing the Colorado Rockies.

I would also judge by the conversation, that no one in this discussion has the experience or knowlege to comment on which is better in a turn. There are too many variables. I would say, however, that race cars are going more to four wheel drive, and that should tell us all something. A four wheel drive racing car first competed in 1903. I imagine that it was abandoned back then because the cars had less horsepower than a 1960s VW Beatle. It simply did not have the power to take advantage of 4 wheels. If it had 50 HP, 5-10 or more of it, went to turning the extra two wheels.

Torque takes you through a corner at high speed with a rear wheel drive car, and that is why you down shift going into a corner. It is a simple fact that you cannot go as fast thru a corner in high gear, you slide out. When you have snow and ice, torque can go out the window. Ever notice how the outside rear wheel "digs-in" on these Mercedes. Probably not so much, as old age and some tired parts, such as most rear body mounts and weak tortion bars minimize the experience.

Since most of you are younger, and never owned one of these cars out of the showroom, there is something else that comes to mind. Most cars dip in the front when you brake. You will know you have your brakes in tip-top condition when both ends of your Mercedes dip when you hit the brakes. When new, both the front and the back drop pretty much equally. My memory from 33 years ago, says 3-4 inches drop, front and rear. It may take orig pads to do this. What's the word, "organic?"

As far as 2 wheel v 4 wheel in a corner, I would bet on the 4 wheel drive today, because, those in the know, are going that way.

Sorry, BC but You don't comprehend what I am saying.

1. Do you own a 4wd, have you ever?
2. Have you driven one at the limits of traction?

We are talking about completely different subjects. Talking about someone sliding off the road because they exceed the grip availalbe happens all the time because the DB does not understand basic physics. What I am talking about is a bit more subtle than that.

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.