More police bad judgement - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

spdrun · #16 06-06-2013, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

So the Father did what He though was right got tazed and now instead of blaming Himself for the death of the Baby can blame the Police. The Father now has nothing to feel guilty about.

All I can say is that if the father took his rage and grief out on the cop at some time in the future, and I ended up on the jury, I'd probably not vote to convict.

Jim B. · #17 06-06-2013, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spdrun

All I can say is that if the father took his rage and grief out on the cop at some time in the future, and I ended up on the jury, I'd probably not vote to convict.

If this happened, and the jury thereupon deadlocked, and the Judge fruitlessly ordered further deliberations, that came to nothing, a mistrial would be declared and the Jury excused. But first, the jury would be "polled" to see the number of jurors voting each way. And the Jury foreperson would have to assure the court all efforts to further deliberate would in his mind, be utterly fruitless.

Minutes later in court, with only the defendant, the defendant's lawyer and the prosecutor present, the Judge would order the matter continued for further proceedings -another date in court some weeks ahead as time permitted, "to set a new trial and or further settlement conference".

The prosecutor then goes back to his office and meets with the Supervising staff Prosecutor and they decide if it is worth the time and trial to go for a second time or just give up and dismiss the case, or try to take a plea of guilty to some lesser included and reasonably related offense, such as maybe simple assault as a misdemeanor, which carries a maximum of a year in the county Jail; and maybe 3 years on Probation;

Or start with harder bargaining, like say. 3-4 years in State Prison, BUT "Execution of (state prison) sentence suspended - commonly called ESS) WITH 3 years probation, 6-12 months in Jail with appropriate credit for time served; warrantless search condition, appropriate "stay away" orders and the rest of the usual bells and whistles, but for this one, the defendant had better report to Adult Probation regularly (maybe it's an ISU = an intensive supervision unit) and if he busts probation even ONCE, he gets a hearing, nt for the originally charged offense, but for whatever the Prosecutor charged as a violation of probation - and if found guilty after a brief hearing, --- (the DA's LOVE these hearings because the standard of proving criminal probation violation culpability is MUCH lower - just 51 to 49% - than in a regular trial, which has "beyond a reasonable doubt and to a moral certainty" about 99% or more - much tougher than a probation revocation hearing)...

If the Judge revokes probation (NO juries for these, either) he then LIFTS the suspended sentence.

Back in Jail, the defendant is told by the Sheriff's deputy to "Roll 'em Up", and it's this way to "begin serving the balance of the state Prison sentence, heretofore imposed".

YMMV in other states and jurisdictions, but that's a quick, general look at how it works in San Francisco Criminal felony court, or did till I retired from working there back in 2003.

aklim · #18 06-07-2013, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Can't Know

Who said I was asking him to lie? If he turns his back and the guy runs in, he's not lying, he didn't see him go.

I agree with you in the cold light of day that the guy probably would have died. But it was certain his son was going to, and if he wanted to roll those dice, it's not the responsibility of you, I, the cop or society to tell him otherwise. We're not him; we don't have the right to substitute our judgment and values for his.

And if asked "Did you do all you could to stop him?", what should he say? But OK. Lets go along with your hypothetical case where the cop turns his back for a few seconds and goes "OMG! He did that!!! If only I saw it I would have stopped him.". If he decides some clown deserves to be lynched by the mob, you would support him in that decision? The principle is the same.

Yes and no. You are right that we don't have the right to tell him that. OTOH, considering that we are on the hook if he gets hurt, well, that kinda muddies the water a little.

aklim · #19 06-07-2013, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

I could not watch the Video so I don‘t know if the Baby died in the Fire or not.

From what you Guys have said the Father did what he thought was best.

The Police Officer/Cop did His or Her Job and prevented the Father from also becoming a Victim.

Psychologically if the Father is better off the way it happened; had obeyed the Police Officer He would have blamed Himself for the rest of life for the Death of the Baby.

So the Father did what He though was right got tazed and now instead of blaming Himself for the death of the Baby can blame the Police. The Father now has nothing to feel guilty about.

What a convoluted mess. I suppose with enough mindfawks around, one can rationalize most anything.

aklim · #20 06-07-2013, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spdrun

All I can say is that if the father took his rage and grief out on the cop at some time in the future, and I ended up on the jury, I'd probably not vote to convict.

So much for post 2 about not sure which side to listen to. Guess you made up your mind to go with being irrational.

spdrun · #21 06-07-2013, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

So much for post 2 about not sure which side to listen to. Guess you made up your mind to go with being irrational.

No: I don't blame the cop. I also wouldn't blame the guy if he found the cop and beat the living snot out of him. Crap situation all around.

aklim · #22 06-07-2013, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spdrun

No: I don't blame the cop. I also wouldn't blame the guy if he found the cop and beat the living snot out of him. Crap situation all around.

If thru action or inaction he allowed that guy to get hurt, I can see canning the guy. In this case, he had a job to do. Sure, it stinks but if you can't do your job, don't put on the badge. He had a duty and he executed it. Same thing I tell my employees. If you want to sign up for the job, you either do the job, quit or I fire you. Unlike you, I have become less and less of a fan of vigilante "justice".

spdrun · #23 06-07-2013, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

If thru action or inaction he allowed that guy to get hurt, I can see canning the guy. In this case, he had a job to do. Sure, it stinks but if you can't do your job, don't put on the badge. He had a duty and he executed it. Same thing I tell my employees. If you want to sign up for the job, you either do the job, quit or I fire you. Unlike you, I have become less and less of a fan of vigilante "justice".

Cops' job shouldn't be to protect people from themselves, only from the violence of others. Suicide and/or placing oneself at great risk should be a g-d given right rather than a crime. I repeat: maybe the cop did a good thing by saving the guy. Maybe the man has other kids and a wife who are grateful.

However, I wouldn't blame him if he beat the crap out of the cop some day. Doesn't make it right for him to do so, but I'd still empathize more than with the cop. "My son may still be alive, but for this damn cop's actions" will ALWAYS be in the back of his mind unless he has the forgiveness of a saint.

aklim · #24 06-07-2013, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spdrun

Suicide and/or placing oneself at great risk should be a g-d given right rather than a crime.

I repeat: maybe the cop did a good thing by saving the guy. Maybe the man has other kids and a wife who are grateful.

However, I know how *I* would feel under the circumstances (extreme rage and hatred),

and I wouldn't blame him if he kicked the crap out of the cop some day.

Again, only if YOU and YOU ALONE are going to be affected. Problem is, somebody else might end up having to pick up the tab if you get hurt. Makes it hard to say "It's my life" when somebody else could wind up footing the bill. As to suicide, no problem. It is YOUR life you are taking.

Good or bad, the cop did the job he signed up for. Whomever is grateful or ungrateful is irrelevant. IF you cannot work within the parameters defined, perhaps you need to consider a new vocation.

How would we know the difference? Rage and hatred is usually dripping from your posts.

Or sat on a grassy knoll and put a round thru the cop's head? Or is the arbitrary line for "I'm pissed off and need to beat you" drawn somewhere and how?

aklim · #25 06-07-2013, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spdrun

"My son may still be alive, but for this damn cop's actions" will ALWAYS be in the back of his mind unless he has the forgiveness of a saint.

OTOH, it could be "Me and my son could be toasted alive and my wife a widow, etc, etc". There isn't any forgiveness since there is no blame. You could look at it the other way and say that maybe he might have a widow and children that would want to beat the crap out of the cop for letting their father get killed on a futile mission. If you choose to blame someone for doing their job as specified, perhaps you need to blame society for telling him to do his job that way. If someone chooses to blame others, I'm sure they can and will find the excuse.

So help me out here. If you did the old "pump and dump" on someone very close to me and it caused me extreme rage and hatred for you, you'd be understanding if I explained the reason my hired hands beat the crap out of you, right? In fact, you'd be so understanding that you'd even drop all charges, wouldn't you? I mean, you would vote "not guilty" if the guy beat the cop's ass so since the principle is the same in my scenario, you'd say "Oh well, I deserved it. I won't press charges.", right? Sure you would.

Skippy · #26 06-07-2013, 06:44 AM

I think the cop did the right thing, as the chance of the father making it back out alive would have been very slim. I'm also glad I wasn't the cop on the scene, since I don't know what I would do in that situation, and would probably feel very bad either way.

t walgamuth · #27 06-07-2013, 06:55 AM

Clearly a bad situation with no good choices. No need for a bunch of guys sitting in their underwear at their computers second guessing him with some small part of the information he had to make a decision in .26 seconds.

aklim · #28 06-07-2013, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Cleary a bad situation with no good choices. No need for a bunch of guys sitting in their underwear at their computers second guessing him with some small part of the information he had to make a decision in .26 seconds.

When at home and at the computer, I sit naked.

t walgamuth · #29 06-07-2013, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

When at home and at the computer, I sit naked.

Oh, thanks for that!

What, just at home?

aklim · #30 06-07-2013, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Oh, thanks for that!

What, just at home?

Well, I had to qualify my opinion by telling you that I wasn't one of those guys sitting in their underwear typing away.

As much as I can get away with. If I am working late at my office and nobody is there, I get to drop the pants and walk around in comfort after I lock the door from the inside.