I don't remember the bible recommending threats, would jesus approve? but then again he didn't write the bible did he?

the bible is a series of stories written sometimes hundreds of years after Jesus was alive, so what he actually said and did is not exactly clear is it?

so what you would present as evidence demonstrating godliness is simply more documents written by followers after the fact, and if we are lucky, the 4 gospels were written by actual apostles within 50 years of jesus dying, or flying up into the sky depending on what you believe.

I lost a close relative 10 years ago. If my life depended on it, I could not tell you a word for word conversation between us. What I would end up writing is what I thought happened, or what I would like to think happened. Ever notice how stories you tell and retell change form over time? By all accounts the apostles went forth and brought the doings of jesus to the masses. How many times do you think they made a polished speech before committing it to a gospel? How often do you think they made compromises to make a better presentation?

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This is where I have most issue. Just how accurate are these ? Were they manipulated to someone's agenda? Were things worded correctly? How about the translations how close to the original texts are they?

This problem is prevalent in nearly any kind of conversion, loss of the original occurs in language, software code, physical energy conversion (at least from source to intended form)...

Now I'm not say there are not good lessons to be learned or the books are utterly useless or anything of that nature....

I've no doubt that Christ's message was on of love and good nature.


I mean just look at World War II and the Holocaust...That was less than 100 years ago yet there some people who deny it occurred, not many likely but still some.

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A course in the transmission of the NT would do you good. And you might even find it interesting.


Here's a few books I'd recommend on the subject.
(lighter reading)
Misquoting Jesus, Bart Ehrman
The NT Documents, Are they Reliable?, F.F. Bruce

(heavier reading)
The King James Only Controversy, James R White
The Text of the New Testament, It's Transmission, Corruption and Restoration, Bruce R Metzger (and Bart Ehrman in the 4th edition)

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NT = New Testament right?

Should be some interesting reads.

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Yep.

And just so it's clear. I have in front of me right now a NA27 (Nestle Aland 27th edition of the Greek NT, with critical apparatus). I have a UBS 1953 and a UBS 1985 at home (United Bible Society Greek NT with critical apparatus).

I have access to every single variant we know of. Right at my fingertips I can tell you whether manuscript __ spells Jerusalem correctly at such and such place.

And even the variants we know of (a variant is any place that differs in the text, a single letter difference, word order, etc) that both effect the meaning of the text and are viable (possibly original), the top scholars in the world are only arguing about ~100 of them.

So I can say pretty certainly that we know what the text says.

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I believe no one is going to seriously debate your "issue" with getting down the exact, precise words such as a tape recorder. Even a tape recorder does not capture context, facial expressions, et cet. I am thinking if I remember my religious training and upbringing correctly, Jesus was not a big fan of the ultra religious right at the time with all of their ultra legalese regarding morality, hyper technical rules regarding morality, and the prescribed ways we treat people. Rather, he made the rules really really simple for us: Love God, Love your neighbor, et cet. As for the message in the Bible, and particular messages, the Good Book is very clear. If someone wants to spend all their time to locate "inconsistencies" or celebrate the ambiguity of language, then I will refer them back to Jesus who was not a big fan of such an approach since He was incredibly clear.

I'll be taking a tally of the number of useless, irrelevent or erroneous comments you make in each post.
Did I threaten anything? No.

That's: 1 That's 2. 3. No, wrong. All of the NT was written prior to 95 CE.

That's 4. Wrong again.

That's 5. "godliness"? You mean deity.

So that's 6 Could they be written "before the fact"? Or "during the fact"?

7.Um, Jesus died. That's not a debatable issue.

8. You had eight different off topic, irrelevent or erroneous statements in this post ALONE. Tell me why I should even bother with addressing your previous statement concerning Jesus identifying himself as deity?

Can you even get through a single post without poor logic, or saying something irrelevant or erroneous?

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interesting tactics, though surprisingly unrelated to the topic despite all your ridged analysis of what adheres to a topic and what doesn't.

My basic point is that nothing Jesus actually wrote has survived. What we have are third person accounts, years later, most deifying him, most presenting him as the focal point of a new religion. Contemporary non religious accounts are also spotty so we have very little feel for the man, just a mountain of what people think, and most of that much later.

Take for example Joseph Smith. We have a huge group of people who believe a mountain of nonsense DESPITE blatantly clear contemporary information still floating around in abundance.

Not that Joseph Smith in any way compares to jesus, but we don't really know do we? what if he was a big scam artist? how do you disprove that? Personally I don't think he was, but then again, there is no way to disprove any theory of that kind.

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1) Jesus didn't write anything that we know of. You are operating on the presupposition that he did.

2) Whether he did write or not is not important. Except those to whom shock value is important. We have first person, second person, third person.

But who cares about accuracy in claims anyway? Glad you finally dropped the "centuries later". Well, since non-biased accounts for anything during that time period were a bit more than "spotty" I'm not sure what that wins you. Except we have plenty to go off of. You just don't know about it or remain in denial. Much later? What the heck does that mean? And compared to what?

Do you even know what accounts of things we have in the ancient world? In comparison Jesus is the best and most widely accounted for figure in the ancient world. Bar none. As someone who has studied Mormonism for at least a decade and interacts with LDS on a weekly basis I find your analogy both inaccurate (mostly due to the anachronistic viewpoint you keep suffering from) and insulting. Then such theories are useless.

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and you are operating on the presupposition that he didn't. If his apostles were all literate and capable of writing, I am prepared to make the leap and believe that Jesus was also literate and probably wrote. Neither one of us has any real evidence either way, though my opinion is based on a little more logic.

you will find that if you read my previous comments, I have repeatedly clarified what I stated by hundreds of years later, and ill let you do that search.

Interesting, I worked next to and for people who adhered to the Church of Latter Day Saints for years myself, and also dealt with them on a daily basis, what of it? I don't pretend to be in a position to speak for them as you do apparently. Now you will be insulted for people you probably consider a form of heretic?
However, I can comment on my conviction that their religion is so preposterous that it makes the idea of you as a priest seem reasonable in comparison.

Ironically, Mormon's are some of the cleanest living, nicest people ive ever met. Its a shame they have built a religion on the scams of a con artist.

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Again, your ignorance of the situation is astounding.

I'm not operating on the presupposition that Jesus didn't write, I'm operating on the consensus of all scholars that he didn't/couldn't.

Can you please provide the evidence to show that the "apostles were also literate and capable of writing"? I'd love to see it. No, what you've done is repeatedly said something different than what you meant. Your writing must improve if you intend to hold many more conversations with anyone reading the English language.Finally, something we can agree on.

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sure, were it the classical period a consensus of all scholars would happily tell me the earth was flat as Aklim pointed out earlier.
Were it a couple hundred years ago, a consensus of religious scholars would have told me the earth was the center of the universe.
any of those cast iron facts turn out to be true? you decide.

As far as literate apostles, my understanding was that Matthew the tax collector wrote his own gospel if the bible is to be believed. Seems that Peter and Paul had friends write theirs, so perhaps they were illiterate, but does that count for all of them?
You seem to take the absence of a positive as proof of a negative. My opinion is that we simply don't know since very little survived. If Joseph was a craftsman of some sort, its possible he knew how to write or at least some rudimentary concepts of math in order to work in that field and passed that on to his son.
In this situation, we could go either way, but as I said, you have no more evidence that he WAS NOT literate than I have that he WAS.

ahh, lesson master martureo drops some good advice again on writing! Still, he forgets that all his source of facts as he calls them are from a book and interpretations and opinions on that book of dozens of versions that he takes for absolute truth.

I disagree that that book should be taken as fact. The core lessons on how to live your life with regards to others hold weight, but fantastical stories of magical occurances strike me as a little bling to sexify the message of christ as sold by his followers.
If we do not agree on that basic issue, then we will never agree in argument. By all means, continue to refer to the bible as fact, and ill start referring to the Lord of the Rings as well as ironclad fact, which is a bit better written, because it tells the best way to kill a goblin. Useful if I come across one digging my pool.

Let me turn to my writing desk and commit to paper some of the things that George Washington did hundreds of years ago, complete with first person commentary that sounds good to me because I like the man, and maybe in 2000 years people will take my statements are accurate representations of what ol George actually did and said as well. Most of the bible is no different.

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