This is where I have most issue. Just how accurate are these ? Were they manipulated to someone's agenda? Were things worded correctly? How about the translations how close to the original texts are they?

This problem is prevalent in nearly any kind of conversion, loss of the original occurs in language, software code, physical energy conversion (at least from source to intended form)...

Now I'm not say there are not good lessons to be learned or the books are utterly useless or anything of that nature....

I've no doubt that Christ's message was on of love and good nature.


I mean just look at World War II and the Holocaust...That was less than 100 years ago yet there some people who deny it occurred, not many likely but still some.

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Maybe my quicky prayer in Church every Sunday for those who don't believe will sway you ... Always wishful

I'll be taking a tally of the number of useless, irrelevent or erroneous comments you make in each post.
Did I threaten anything? No.

That's: 1 That's 2. 3. No, wrong. All of the NT was written prior to 95 CE.

That's 4. Wrong again.

That's 5. "godliness"? You mean deity.

So that's 6 Could they be written "before the fact"? Or "during the fact"?

7.Um, Jesus died. That's not a debatable issue.

8. You had eight different off topic, irrelevent or erroneous statements in this post ALONE. Tell me why I should even bother with addressing your previous statement concerning Jesus identifying himself as deity?

Can you even get through a single post without poor logic, or saying something irrelevant or erroneous?

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I've never questioned the efficacy of a quicky.

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A course in the transmission of the NT would do you good. And you might even find it interesting.


Here's a few books I'd recommend on the subject.
(lighter reading)
Misquoting Jesus, Bart Ehrman
The NT Documents, Are they Reliable?, F.F. Bruce

(heavier reading)
The King James Only Controversy, James R White
The Text of the New Testament, It's Transmission, Corruption and Restoration, Bruce R Metzger (and Bart Ehrman in the 4th edition)

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NT = New Testament right?

Should be some interesting reads.

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I believe no one is going to seriously debate your "issue" with getting down the exact, precise words such as a tape recorder. Even a tape recorder does not capture context, facial expressions, et cet. I am thinking if I remember my religious training and upbringing correctly, Jesus was not a big fan of the ultra religious right at the time with all of their ultra legalese regarding morality, hyper technical rules regarding morality, and the prescribed ways we treat people. Rather, he made the rules really really simple for us: Love God, Love your neighbor, et cet. As for the message in the Bible, and particular messages, the Good Book is very clear. If someone wants to spend all their time to locate "inconsistencies" or celebrate the ambiguity of language, then I will refer them back to Jesus who was not a big fan of such an approach since He was incredibly clear.

LOL !

"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us."
Pope Leo X (1513-1521)

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touched by his noodly appendage

Wowza,

Are you also in the camp that says B.O. was not born in the USA and the long list of other allegations ...

Getting to the Source of Alleged Quotes by Christians

After all, if we are going to sling the unproven allegations.

Have there been less than optimal Popes -- probably. But, this sort of unfounded quotes, et cet., is getting strained at this point.

interesting tactics, though surprisingly unrelated to the topic despite all your ridged analysis of what adheres to a topic and what doesn't.

My basic point is that nothing Jesus actually wrote has survived. What we have are third person accounts, years later, most deifying him, most presenting him as the focal point of a new religion. Contemporary non religious accounts are also spotty so we have very little feel for the man, just a mountain of what people think, and most of that much later.

Take for example Joseph Smith. We have a huge group of people who believe a mountain of nonsense DESPITE blatantly clear contemporary information still floating around in abundance.

Not that Joseph Smith in any way compares to jesus, but we don't really know do we? what if he was a big scam artist? how do you disprove that? Personally I don't think he was, but then again, there is no way to disprove any theory of that kind.

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Yep.

And just so it's clear. I have in front of me right now a NA27 (Nestle Aland 27th edition of the Greek NT, with critical apparatus). I have a UBS 1953 and a UBS 1985 at home (United Bible Society Greek NT with critical apparatus).

I have access to every single variant we know of. Right at my fingertips I can tell you whether manuscript __ spells Jerusalem correctly at such and such place.

And even the variants we know of (a variant is any place that differs in the text, a single letter difference, word order, etc) that both effect the meaning of the text and are viable (possibly original), the top scholars in the world are only arguing about ~100 of them.

So I can say pretty certainly that we know what the text says.

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More to the point, how many times do you suppose that quote by Leo X has been changed to make him seem evil?

Now, how many times during the Inquisition, were people ordered to burn scrolls? How many changes did King James change the text that his cronies scribed? How many times did others make changes?

Constantine capitalized on a situation to control the masses in the year 325. The meeting in Nicaea was no different than Muhammad writing the Koran, or Joseph Smith reading (dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb) reading gold plates that suddenly disappeared.

Show me. Walk on water. Turn 10 fish into 10000 before my eyes.

I've been waiting my entire life for someone to show me something other than a basket to put my money into.

This is about control.

Grown-ups with imaginary friends...the lot.

__________________
touched by his noodly appendage

1) Jesus didn't write anything that we know of. You are operating on the presupposition that he did.

2) Whether he did write or not is not important. Except those to whom shock value is important. We have first person, second person, third person.

But who cares about accuracy in claims anyway? Glad you finally dropped the "centuries later". Well, since non-biased accounts for anything during that time period were a bit more than "spotty" I'm not sure what that wins you. Except we have plenty to go off of. You just don't know about it or remain in denial. Much later? What the heck does that mean? And compared to what?

Do you even know what accounts of things we have in the ancient world? In comparison Jesus is the best and most widely accounted for figure in the ancient world. Bar none. As someone who has studied Mormonism for at least a decade and interacts with LDS on a weekly basis I find your analogy both inaccurate (mostly due to the anachronistic viewpoint you keep suffering from) and insulting. Then such theories are useless.

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How about you stop the nonsense and start learning the facts of the situation. 'aight? Really? What really happened and Nicaea?

Can you tell us?

__________________
Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat

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1984 300D "Elsa" odo reset 6/2011 147k
1983 300TD "Mitzi" ~268k OM603 powered
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