Heaven, Hell and the Devil - Page 12 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

kerry · #**166** 06-26-2013, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martureo

I'd think that the author and I would agree that promoting a mindset or a subculture with this way of thinking would be the way to go. Jesus was on the earth during a period where there were non-Jewish rulers over the people (Herod/Caesar) and really any attempt to overthrow the system and reinstate a no-private-property system would end really badly.

Therefore since Jesus spoke of living a certain way under a system we should too.

Excerpt that his 'not enforced' argument applies to the Jewish economic laws and not Jesus' ideas.

JB3 · #**167** 06-26-2013, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

^^^ It's more than funny, it's bizarre.

Jesus was clearly a theo-communist. Everything he is quoted as saying had to do with the individual's responsibility to those less fortunate, with the bonus of God's solemn command. That trumps Karl Marx.

The epistle entitled "Acts of the Apostles" gives a fine example of a theo-communist structure. Even with divine punishment for failing the "from each according to his ability..." part.

Modern communism's only significant difference is substituting obedience to the State for obedience to God.

well said. Jesus was a man, and a member of a persecuted enslaved people in an occupied city where once the kingdom of Judah stood, and was killed for his movement, and that movement has a lot in common with modern communist ideals, which both Communists and Christians will all deny.

Secondly its only after the extreme passage of time that he's been deified, several hundred years before he was made into a religious figure of extreme importance.

He was simply a man, and a man who in his own time clearly didn't have an immediately lasting effect, as less than 80 years passed after his death before the Jewish Zealots rose up violently instead and were brutally put down by the Romans. They enjoyed a bit more initial success than Jesus, but ultimately caused the final destruction of the temple of temple mount as retaliation.

For a modern time comparison, call Jesus a figure similar to Ghandi, and the Zealots similar to the Warsaw ghetto uprising. Only in ancient times, neither movement saw anymore success than the warsaw ghetto.

As far as whether there is a god, my feeling is that I were to believe in any theological invention of man, the Greek polythiesm simply makes more sense, of gods warring constantly with each and playing humanity off each other for their own amusement. If humans are in the image of anything, a palace of conniving fighting gods with endless plots and drama sounds about right.

However, I think its presumptuous of us to claim there is a diety and that we are in his image, we've only been on this planet for an eye blink of 200 thousand years or so. Very much the new kids on the block, if there is a god, hes probably a reptile similar to a dinosaur, since they were here 825 times longer than us.

aklim · #**168** 06-26-2013, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB3

As far as whether there is a god, my feeling is that I were to believe in any theological invention of man, the Greek polythiesm simply makes more sense, of gods warring constantly with each and playing humanity off each other for their own amusement. If humans are in the image of anything, a palace of conniving fighting gods with endless plots and drama sounds about right.

However, I think its presumptuous of us to claim there is a diety and that we are in his image, we've only been on this planet for an eye blink of 200 thousand years or so. Very much the new kids on the block, if there is a god, hes probably a reptile similar to a dinosaur, since they were here 825 times longer than us.

Don't we already have that in the bible? Do this or I kill you. Pull out of the woman and I kill you. Get too much cohesiveness and I change your language. Oppose me and I blind you till you see things my way.

Dead reptile cannot promise you paradise though. We need to invent something that can.

greazzer · #**169** 06-26-2013, 11:53 AM

However, I think its presumptuous of us to claim there is a diety and that we are in his image, we've only been on this planet for an eye blink of 200 thousand years or so. Very much the new kids on the block, if there is a god, hes probably a reptile similar to a dinosaur, since they were here 825 times longer than us.[/QUOTE]

Wowza ...

I know if someone made a small video based upon the above commentary deplicting Jesus and Christianity and God along those lines... well, would us Christians be authorized to gather, riot, and kill those who mock the True Faith ...? I am thinking the movie "The Innocence of the Muslims" portrayed islam and muhammad in not a favorable light and we all know what happened after that viewed ... although the reaction was a little delayed but who is counting the beans anyways these days. Plus, our Commander-in-Chief went on TV with his built in campaign platform and told the world how bad this movie is and not really any reflection of the good ol'e USA. So, if someone made a movie along the lines you suggest, would B.O. go on the campaign trail and criticize a mockery of God as being a cold blooded repetile with a brain cavity the size of a walnut? A "diety" which must shed its skin annually, eats insects and carion, walks on four legs, lays eggs, and so forth. Or, would the star be along the lines of T-Rex? Pretty flattering to some I guess.

JB3 · #**170** 06-26-2013, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greazzer

Wowza ...

I know if someone made a small video based upon the above commentary deplicting Jesus and Christianity and God along those lines... well, would us Christians be authorized to gather, riot, and kill those who mock the True Faith ...? I am thinking the movie "The Innocence of the Muslims" portrayed islam and muhammad in not a favorable light and we all know what happened after that viewed ... although the reaction was a little delayed but who is counting the beans anyways these days. Plus, our Commander-in-Chief went on TV with his built in campaign platform and told the world how bad this movie is and not really any reflection of the good ol'e USA. So, if someone made a movie along the lines you suggest, would B.O. go on the campaign trail and criticize a mockery of God as being a cold blooded repetile with a brain cavity the size of a walnut? A "diety" which must shed its skin annually, eats insects and carion, walks on four legs, lays eggs, and so forth. Or, would the star be along the lines of T-Rex? Pretty flattering to some I guess.

My point was to demonstrate that we have been on this planet a short time. The species that was here before us, that of the dinosaurs were here far far far far longer than us, as I said, over 800 times longer than us.

If there is a diety that is all powerful and made this world and us, why would he/she/it care about the last few minutes of whats going on with humanity as compared to whats demonstrated in the fossil record? Why would he/she/it look anything like us, and why would any deity who made the earth care about the last fraction of a percent of the earths history where we are?

JB3 · #**171** 06-26-2013, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greazzer

You must get all of your news from MSNBC, but that is a different story ...

The vast majority of the USA is Christian, about 75% or 3 out of 4. Does that equal the voting majority ... probably not. No Christian is "freaking out" over the administration. Just a healthy concern because of the increasing number of jabs, slights, and insults towards us Christains. It's very clear that the current agenda by our current "leader" is not so friendly to the Faith. Rather, there seems to be a clear bending over backwards for our islam brothers. I wonder why? For example, the agenda to create a seperate sharia law court is alive in the USA, but I wonder what would happen if our consitutional scholar of a president caught wind of a Canon Law Court being created in the USA? And, we all know what B.O. does if you do not waive the hope and change banner ... one gets targeted by the IRS, DOJ, and the list goes on. 2014 is coming up. If the Republicans, or any party for that matter, can effectively promise more gifts and handouts to the intended audience who coincidentially is also the voting majority, then that party will win. B.O. proved that in 2012.

you get this fact from wikipedia?

other sources differ. This article thinks more like between 10 and 20%.

How Many "Real Christians" In North America? - Theologica

excerpt-

"I had a feeling that the popular statistics were misleading (Wikipedia - 76%
of Americans are Christians...palleeeaaase!!), so I dug a little
deeper. The Gallup polls indicate that 40% of North Americans indicate
that they attend Church regularly, but I found that number to be very
suspect, so I dug a little more.

An article by Christianity Today deemed "Statistical Illusion" indicates that many lie about their Church attendance (no
way!!), and indicates that only about 20% of North Americans attend
church regularly. The Ontario Consultants On Religious Tolerance did an in depth study
and came away with roughly the same percentage - 20%. And Dave Olson,
the director of church planting for the Evangelical Covenant Church has a very interesting
slideshow that indicates church attendance in the United States at
only 18.7%.

So, 20% huh? Not so fast. What I want to know is how many are really "practicing Christians." Everybody (well, most everybody?) knows that
not everybody in a Church is a Christian. So how many of that 20% or so
who regularly attend church are really "committed Christians" and not
just "pew-warmers"?

I was talking with one of the Pastors of a large local Mainstream church (5,000 members or so) here in the Dallas area last fall, and he told me
that he figures that only about a third of those in attendance on any
given Sunday are confessing Christians.

A third?!? Surely not?

If that number is true when averaged out among all churches in North America, that would mean that only 6% of the population in North America
are true-blue, confessing, practicing Christians! "

martureo · #**172** 06-26-2013, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Excerpt that his 'not enforced' argument applies to the Jewish economic laws and not Jesus' ideas.

Very true. I'd have to study a bit more to find out why those specific laws were not enforced.

I know that though the year of Jubilee was a command it was not universally obeyed for various reasons.

martureo · #**173** 06-26-2013, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB3

well said. Jesus was a man, and a member of a persecuted enslaved people in an occupied city where once the kingdom of Judah stood, and was killed for his movement, and that movement has a lot in common with modern communist ideals, which both Communists and Christians will all deny.

Secondly its only after the extreme passage of time that he's been deified, several hundred years before he was made into a religious figure of extreme importance.

He was simply a man, and a man who in his own time clearly didn't have an immediately lasting effect, as less than 80 years passed after his death before the Jewish Zealots rose up violently instead and were brutally put down by the Romans. They enjoyed a bit more initial success than Jesus, but ultimately caused the final destruction of the temple of temple mount as retaliation.

For a modern time comparison, call Jesus a figure similar to Ghandi, and the Zealots similar to the Warsaw ghetto uprising. Only in ancient times, neither movement saw anymore success than the warsaw ghetto.

As far as whether there is a god, my feeling is that I were to believe in any theological invention of man, the Greek polythiesm simply makes more sense, of gods warring constantly with each and playing humanity off each other for their own amusement. If humans are in the image of anything, a palace of conniving fighting gods with endless plots and drama sounds about right.

However, I think its presumptuous of us to claim there is a diety and that we are in his image, we've only been on this planet for an eye blink of 200 thousand years or so. Very much the new kids on the block, if there is a god, hes probably a reptile similar to a dinosaur, since they were here 825 times longer than us.

I'm sorry but you're quite wrong.

In the 1st century we have a hymn supposedly written in the first years after the Crucifixtion proclaiming the diety of Christ (Philippians 2:5-11, also known as the Carmen Christi, the hymn of Christ).

We have fragments from the Gospel of John from the early 2nd century as well. (still less than a century)

So, you are either uninformed or are purposefully ignoring the evidence to the contrary.

JB3 · #**174** 06-26-2013, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martureo

I'm sorry but you're quite wrong.

In the 1st century we have a hymn supposedly written in the first years after the Crucifixtion proclaiming the diety of Christ (Philippians 2:5-11, also known as the Carmen Christi, the hymn of Christ).

We have fragments from the Gospel of John from the early 2nd century as well. (still less than a century)

So, you are either uninformed or are purposefully ignoring the evidence to the contrary.

you have a hymn supposedly written in the first years after the crucifiction and fragments from the gospel of John, and how does this prove your point and disprove mine?
I said religious figure of extreme importance.

My point is that with Christ in living memory the Jewish Nationalist zealots rose against the Romans, in a manner completely at odds with Christ's teachings and message.

I have no doubt that there were people in his time that deified him, so it seems that large numbers seem to have not regarded him as a deity until later on.

Greazzer and Larry would have us believe the liberals are deifying Obama even as we speak. Do we all believe that? nope.

Jorn · #**175** 06-26-2013, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martureo

I'm sorry but you're quite wrong.

In the 1st century we have a hymn supposedly written in the first years after the Crucifixtion proclaiming the diety of Christ (Philippians 2:5-11, also known as the Carmen Christi, the hymn of Christ).

We have fragments from the Gospel of John from the early 2nd century as well. (still less than a century)

So, you are either uninformed or are purposefully ignoring the evidence to the contrary.

You say he's "quite wrong" and then you continue with: "we have a hymn supposedly written". How can you say he's wrong if you don't really know?

greazzer · #**176** 06-26-2013, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB3

you get this fact from wikipedia?

other sources differ. This article thinks more like between 10 and 20%.

How Many "Real Christians" In North America? - Theologica

excerpt-

"I had a feeling that the popular statistics were misleading (Wikipedia - 76%
of Americans are Christians...palleeeaaase!!), so I dug a little
deeper. The Gallup polls indicate that 40% of North Americans indicate
that they attend Church regularly, but I found that number to be very
suspect, so I dug a little more.

An article by Christianity Today deemed "Statistical Illusion" indicates that many lie about their Church attendance (no
way!!), and indicates that only about 20% of North Americans attend
church regularly. The Ontario Consultants On Religious Tolerance did an in depth study
and came away with roughly the same percentage - 20%. And Dave Olson,
the director of church planting for the Evangelical Covenant Church has a very interesting
slideshow that indicates church attendance in the United States at
only 18.7%.

So, 20% huh? Not so fast. What I want to know is how many are really "practicing Christians." Everybody (well, most everybody?) knows that
not everybody in a Church is a Christian. So how many of that 20% or so
who regularly attend church are really "committed Christians" and not
just "pew-warmers"?

I was talking with one of the Pastors of a large local Mainstream church (5,000 members or so) here in the Dallas area last fall, and he told me
that he figures that only about a third of those in attendance on any
given Sunday are confessing Christians.

A third?!? Surely not?

If that number is true when averaged out among all churches in North America, that would mean that only 6% of the population in North America
are true-blue, confessing, practicing Christians! "

Wowza again and some more wowza ...

Those who are Christians or those who identify themselves as Christians (I guess the person taking the poll chose to use the latter language) is around 75%. Those who don't like those stats ... well, let's cut down the size by saying a lot of those in the 75% camp are really not that good at being a "real" Christian. I guess the atheistic community will be making those decisions too. LOL. Some of these posts are just way, way too funny but that imbues a smidge of taking what folks say with a tinsey iensey bit seriousness, such as a lizard T-Rex like god ...

martureo · #**177** 06-26-2013, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB3

you have a hymn supposedly written in the first years after the crucifiction and fragments from the gospel of John, and how does this prove your point and disprove mine?
I said religious figure of extreme importance.

Both of those documents claimed that Jesus was God. I don't know how much more "extreme importance" one would require.

Quote:

My point is that with Christ in living memory the Jewish Nationalist zealots rose against the Romans, in a manner completely at odds with Christ's teachings and message.

And? They were Jews, not Christians.

non sequitor

Quote:

I have no doubt that there were people in his time that deified him, so it seems that large numbers seem to have not regarded him as a deity until later on.

Let me know what a "large number" is.

It was large enough that the Roman Empire persecuted them for tax evasion and treason (because they were not a legitimate or legal religion).

It was large enough that they were mentioned by plenty of people in government positions.

Please, there were plenty of Christian early on. Don't be so naive.

Quote:

Greazzer and Larry would have us believe the liberals are deifying Obama even as we speak. Do we all believe that? nope.

I cannot even begin to respond to such a ridiculous bit of logic.

martureo · #**178** 06-26-2013, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jorn

You say he's "quite wrong" and then you continue with: "we have a hymn supposedly written". How can you say he's wrong if you don't really know?

We know (and I mean a great many scholars believe) that the epistle to the Philippians quoting the hymn was written by Paul between 50-62 CE. Which means that in the absolute worst case scenario JB3 is wrong. But the hymn definitely existed prior to Paul writing it and the wording and oral tradition carry it back to the point of the crucifixion.

greazzer · #**179** 06-26-2013, 01:14 PM

Watch your step Ben ... LOL. Not sure how Larry or myself are now proclaiming that self-proclaimed atheists worship B.O. (or anybody for that matter). If the atheistic community or the luke-warm community disavowel the Son of God, then how in the world could such the same community dieify B.O., a truly flawed person ? You got me on that one also.

Botnst · #**180** 06-26-2013, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB3

you have a hymn supposedly written in the first years after the crucifiction and fragments from the gospel of John, and how does this prove your point and disprove mine?
I said religious figure of extreme importance.

My point is that with Christ in living memory the Jewish Nationalist zealots rose against the Romans, in a manner completely at odds with Christ's teachings and message.

I have no doubt that there were people in his time that deified him, so it seems that large numbers seem to have not regarded him as a deity until later on.

Greazzer and Larry would have us believe the liberals are deifying Obama even as we speak. Do we all believe that? nope.

He has near-contemporaneous physical evidence of believers regarding the Christ as a deity.

You have a reasonable opinion.

Which argument is stronger?

View Poll Results: Heaven? Hell? The Devil? You buy into it?
Hell Yes!!!	15	35.71%
Hell No!!!	28	66.67%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll