did you even peruse my link?

again, you totally missed my point just like you continue to miss my other point. you are throwing around the 75% as if that represents a huge body of people who are the majority of all Americans like there will be this huge movement to reinstate christian ideals on everyone and anything.

The reality is different. But then again, the reality is self evident currently, and supported by this poll above.

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right, the document claims Jesus was God, and the document was written by a man to other men. The difference between you and I is that your belief means you find that to be blatant evidence that Jesus is in fact god, and my lack of belief leads me to be a bit more skeptical about documents written thousands of years ago by men, claiming other men were one thing or the other.

as another example, larry in many threads has repeatedly claimed that obama wants to be crowned king obama and take over the country, and has written that dozens of times. Does that make his theory true, just because he wrote it?

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Yes, you're correct: the PeachParts Poll represents the USA ! The voting majority from PeachParts forum members represents what again? You've got to be kidding me on this one. Wowza to the extreme ...

75% is a huge body of people considering the group is 300 million+. Not sure about the concept of a "huge movement to reinstate Christian ideals on everyone and anything". Many of our laws are already based upon Judeo-Christain ideals, e.g., don't murder, don't steal, don't lie, et cet. I have not heard of a presidential candidate say, vote for me because I am a Christian and my opponent is not or I am better or "real" Christian and my opponent is not. Show me one, please.

I thought these threads and posts tried to stay focused and somewhat serious ... I guess this one is in total free fall now.

Apparently, you didn't read. He said the reality was supported by the poll and not the other way around which is what you seem to be saying.

So what? There are many laws based on silly faiths and what not that are similar.

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not sure when I said the PP poll represents the USA, what I DID say, was that the poll above SUPPORTED the fact that less people are actually religious, and it does.

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Whoa.. hold on there.... You've just skipped to another issue altogether. Try to stay on topic.

You claimed that centuries passed before Jesus was considered a "figure of extreme importance".

Then I provided evidence which proved your assertion to be incorrect.


Now the next thing out of your mouth should have been either "this is why I don't accept your evidence" or a capitulation of your position.

I'll be waiting.

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Hell does not exist, according to the bible!!
" Only modern bibles have replaced the words "Sheol", "Tartarus," "Hades", and "Gehenna" with the word "Hell".
The word “Hell” appears nowhere in ancient biblical texts and is a mistranslation provided for us by non other than Martin Luther who translated scripture into German in the early sixteenth century. Martin Luther translated the word “Hades” into hell (German Hölle). The underworld in Norse mythology was ruled by the goddess Hel. The place was also called Hel.

"Gehenna" was a garbage dump. Used by Jews of the time to get rid of, or destroy things. Gehenna was a place to cast ones garbage, dead and diseased bodies, the bodies of criminals, and other refuse. In order to ensure complete and utter destruction, the Jews kept the fires of Gehenna always burning.

"Sheol" is the Hebrew word roughly translated as “the abode of the dead”, sometimes translated as “underworld”, “grave”, or “pit”.
The word Sheol was commonly used to denote not an afterlife of punishment and torment, but the earthly grave. The place where the body, not the soul goes.

The word “Hades” is used exclusively in the New Testament, and is obviously of Greek influence. Certainly Hades did not come to exist as soon as the Jews made contact with the Greeks. Certainly the Jews of the time did not ascribe to the Greek ideas of hell. To do so would be counter productive to their ideal. Neither would Jesus allow paganism to influence or be a part of his teachings.
The word "Hades" in Greek translates into “Hidden”, or “unseen”. And was probably used by Christ in place of Sheol. Also noteworthy is that the gospels were written in Greek.

The word "Tartarus" is used only once in 2 peter 2:4 to describe a place where sinning angels go. It may be noted that Tartarus appears to be a place that is temporary.
2 peter 2:4: “For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to Tartarus, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment.”

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I said "several hundred years before he was made into a religious figure of extreme importance"
If you are going to quote me, get the whole thing.

I didn't say that he wasn't important to contemporary followers, but id put him at a religious figure of extreme importance the day the Romans adopted christianity as the state religion, which was 313 AD, centuries after his death.
Before that it was a growing religion on par with a lot of other belief systems.

The problem here is for you, he was always important, but for a while christians were not a major religion, took a while to build momentum. Also, you actually haven't presented any evidence, just anecdotal statements made by men. The next thing out of your mouth should be some clarification of that evidence.

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Take a little peak at Matthew 25:31-46, and others. I will let Martureo chime in. Are you saying that because the exact word "hell" was not originally used in the Bible, then the concept of hell does not exist? Or, are you saying that the Bible does not discuss hell?

I proved you wrong.

Now you should apologize or challenge the evidence. Your current weaseling isn't doing your position any good. Oh man...

1. The "Romans" (or the Roman Empire) did not adopt Christianity as a state religion in 313 AD. In 313 AD Christianity became a legitimate religion, prior to that point it was illegal to be a Christian. Illegal because every person in the empire was obligated not only to pay tax to Caesar but to offer to him as a living deity. Jews also rejected this but the Roman Emperor gave them an exception to the rule, until 313 AD Christians were not given such an exemption. Up til the Peace of the Church in 313 AD (and more vigorously just prior to that point) Christians were arrested, their property seized and often they were just executed. Constantine (the emperor responsible for the Peace of the Church) was baptized by an Arian bishop on his death bed. No Christian today would consider Arians to be Christians as they deny the deity of Christ. Arius himself was declared a heretic and banned by the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.
2. Christianity didn't become a "state religion" of the Roman Empire until 380 AD by the Edict of Thessalonica.
3. Actually the population of the Christian movement exploded pretty much after the first decade of it's existence. By the 4th century it was almost the dominant religion of the Roman empire, even if it was still illegal

You've got to be kidding. Do you even know how a debate works?

You've made the claims it is therefore your job to provide the evidence. I provide the counter evidence.

And slapping the term "anecdotal" on something doesn't make it any less historical nor accurate. I've provided substance you've provided opinion and inaccurate statements about history.

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"Sheol" most commonly used, is plainly the grave, the earth, dirt.
(Google "The word hell used in the bible")

I also wondered this: if Jesus knew who he was and how important he was to all humanity; why didn't Jesus write? Was he too busy? He didn't care?
Also, Why did it take 34+ years After Jesus death for anyone to get around to write if it was so dang important to humanity? Then why do the Gospels obviously plagiarize each other? ..... I mean The Buddha wrote, Confucius wrote, Lao Tzu wrote, they made absolutely no claims as a deity....why didn't Jesus write?
Did Jesus come to save all the Billions of humans, humanoids and Neanderthals that lived over multi-millennia before his time?
And those Billions who never heard the word Jesus? Are they to be punished for all eternity in a fiery furnace by a God who supposedly loves them?

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The imagery used of the place of those who are damned contradicts your assertions. While the word "hell" doesn't exist, nor does any other English word. So I fail to see your point as anything other than partially informed shock value. Does it matter?You've got a rather anachronistic view of the ancient world. It'd be great if you'd recognize that and try to correct it.

1. Writing was not as it was today, not everyone could write. Writing materials were also expensive.
2. The Jewish culture that Jesus came from, as did his disciples was a very oral culture. Writing wasn't always necessary.
3. It's much easier to tell people your message instead of sitting down with a scribe and writing it out.
4. Christianity was an illegal religion, getting a professional scribe to write things out and copy them for you was usually not an option.

Is that a problem? Is it a requisite of claiming to be a deity to write? Yes.No.

Please try to avoid the shotgun approach. It usually puts you in the same category as 7th graders and the weak minded.

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This sounds like the stuff discussed in my high school (I went to a Catholic H.S.). I am thinking Father B. had the best answer when he discussed those who disbelieve, a/k/a atheist. I am paraphrasing since that was a long time ago, but the message herein is about spot on. He said there will always be those who disbelieve, mock Jesus, and pose all sorts of believed clever commentary about God and Jesus in an attempt to show the world just how much smarter that person is. Even if Jesus rode in a firery chariot accross the skies every month as a display of his presence and power, there will be those who still disbelieve. And, for those who would be converted, what does that really say about God, Faith, and free will. I find it very funny how so many atheist on this forum don't believe in God because they find God strong arming those who believe. I have never seen anyone's arm twisted. That is why we have free will and personal choice. Because there are consequences for one's behavior, and someone might not like those consequences, they lash out and blame God and accuse Him of being a strong armed thug. So, back to the fierey chariot deal. Would God be so accused if his Son was spotted once a month cruising through the sky truly displaying his power for those who truly need such a primitive gesture? Of course ... He's now showing his presence with a show of force so to speak. Miracles are God's way of remaining anonymous.

Proof and religion is like getting pregnant without sex.

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where was this again? I don't see any proof. I see you saying that a document that calls Christ god is proof. Proof enough for you apparently

see above.


I mixed up the edict of Milan with the edict of Thessalonica, though again, im not sure what the big arguement is here for you. These edicts were several hundred years after christ, up until 311 with the edict of toleration, then 313 with the edict of Milan where Constatine himself converts and also returns church property, and finally made a state religion with the edict of thessalonica as you state.

How is this not in line with what I stated, about several hundred years for Christ to become a religious figure of extreme importance?

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