Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Discussions > Off-Topic Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-27-2013, 06:18 PM
dkveuro's Avatar
Sword of Damocles
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Here an' there.
Posts: 2,548
Paper Air Filter vs Oiled Air Filter.

For some time I have installed K&N type air filters to diesel engines of many types because the blow by fumes carry oil mist and prematurely oil up paper filters and restrict air flow to the point of filter element collapse.

Having said that...I understand blow by is a symptom of the amount of wear and ideally the engine should be rebuilt or exchanged. This is not often in the customers budget.

So, in order for this to reduce the impact on a paper filter....I have installed oiled filters. Engine still has blow by but oiled filters can handle this.

Now...looking into the filtering ability of air filters I have stumbled across this :

K&N Air Filter Review - Debunking the Myths (and why OEM is better)

It appears all is not as advertised....surprise, surprise. ...but I didn't expect such a damming test result.

Your comments ?.



.
__________________
[http://languageandgrammar.com/2008/01/14/youve-got-problems-not-issues/ ]

"A liberal is someone who feels they owe a great debt to their fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money."
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-28-2013, 12:52 AM
Pooka
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 664
Paper filters were once just one step above a paper towel. VW used oil bath filters until about 1974 on their Bugs and it is hard to find a car from the 50's that did not have an oil bath filter available.

K & N was the answer to better filtering. K & N also allowed more air to enter the engine with less work because the air did not have to find its' way through a maze of paper.

Factory filters have come a long way and it is because they now use paper with a high rag content. Therefore they filter out smaller particles than they once did and engines last longer. But with K & N you get high rag and oil bath in one and that is why I use them.

But I like K & N and have put hundreds of thousands of miles on some cars with them installed. I don't know if they really work like they are cracked up to, but I do know my engines last a lot longer than they once did.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-28-2013, 02:50 AM
dkveuro's Avatar
Sword of Damocles
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Here an' there.
Posts: 2,548
Oil bath air filters where and are very efficient . Self washing matrix and 'drain, clean and return to service.'

Early 'bath' style air filters where a water bath and a little oil to stop rapid water evaporation. Later all oil bath. The oil would climb the matrix in the air flow and trickle back down to the bath carrying the dirt with it plus oiling the matrix to catch dirt.

I remember the VW and truck oil bath filters but they took 30 minutes to service and needed a lot of room in the engine bay or hung on the outside.. no room for those type filters in a modern engine bay.....even the trucking industry now use a cyclone type air cleaner with a paper element.

I think you cannot beat a well designed oil bath air filter for efficiency. As for K&N I think this is a poor compromise . I used to ride a motorcycle with Amal carb's, with no filter of any kind including any rock screen. Bike lasted quiet a while as did dad's 650 Norton with no filters.

I remember riding on the pillion in traffic( London. 1950's), when it back fired and caught dad's pants leg on fire !


.
__________________
[http://languageandgrammar.com/2008/01/14/youve-got-problems-not-issues/ ]

"A liberal is someone who feels they owe a great debt to their fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money."
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-28-2013, 10:15 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: St. Thomas PA
Posts: 957
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pooka View Post
Paper filters were once just one step above a paper towel. VW used oil bath filters until about 1974 on their Bugs and it is hard to find a car from the 50's that did not have an oil bath filter available.

K & N was the answer to better filtering. K & N also allowed more air to enter the engine with less work because the air did not have to find its' way through a maze of paper.

Factory filters have come a long way and it is because they now use paper with a high rag content. Therefore they filter out smaller particles than they once did and engines last longer. But with K & N you get high rag and oil bath in one and that is why I use them.

But I like K & N and have put hundreds of thousands of miles on some cars with them installed. I don't know if they really work like they are cracked up to, but I do know my engines last a lot longer than they once did.
If K&N style filters are so good, why aren't they standard equipment on OTR trucks and construction equipment?
__________________
'83 300D, 126K miles.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-28-2013, 10:44 AM
Posting since Jan 2000
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,346
I don't remember if it was here, or on a Corvette forum that I used to frequent, but this subject was beaten into oblivion at some point in the past.

What I took away from it at that point was that the K&N type filter provided more air flow, but did not filter as well. This is an over generalization, but that was the long and short of it.

In today's world of zillion mile engines, I think that the filtration effectiveness difference is kind of a wash (no pun intended) against the fact that it is a one time purchase.

For the more persnickety among us, who go to all lengths for optimum engine life, I think frequently changed paper elements would be the best approach.

My $0.02,
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-28-2013, 01:59 PM
Pooka
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by rscurtis View Post
If K&N style filters are so good, why aren't they standard equipment on OTR trucks and construction equipment?
OEM costs would be my guess.

I knew a guy that ran hydraulic supply company. He sold to a lot of OEM's and all he cared about was price when it came to things like filters. They knew the customer was going to change them out anyway, so why spend a few extra dollars on something with no seen value?

I would sometimes go with him on service calls and I remarked that it was wise of him to sell his equipment with Hastings filters. He said everything I was looking at were replacement filters; he would never put something on his equipment with such a high cost.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-28-2013, 04:56 PM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 28,800
I had installed a K&N Air filter for the same reason; Blow-by was shortening the life of the Paper Element Filter.
See the Response I got from the below question:
Washing K&N air filters
Washing K&N air filters - PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum

I stuck with the K&N till I did the below:
Washable Air Filter and Intake Mod , With Larger Breather
Washable Air Filter and Intake Mod , With Larger Breather - PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum

I also had a K&N on My Chevy Van. I also replaced that with a Fram Washable Air Filter.
On thing concerning the K&N Air Filters. The rubber sealing area on them is stiff. I think a lot some of the poor filtering of the K&N Filters is due to the poor sealing of the Rubber to the Housing. When I installed Mine I put a bead of Silicon Sealant on both side of the Filter along the Sealing edge. That way I was sure it sealed well.

Concerning Paper Air Filter Elements. Where I worked the moved to a 40 acre dirt lot. They had Shipping Container lifters, Fork lifts, Trucks and assorted Step Vans and regular Pick-up Trucks that gronned around the yard.
On the large equipment that moved a lot around the Yard any time they were stopped long enough to do so I swapped out the Air Filters and used an Air Gun to blow out the Dust from the one I pulled of and put that in a plastic Bag to reuse. I tried to do that to all of the large equipment at least 4 times a day.

The one Shipping Container Lifter had an outer Air Filter that cost $90 and an inner Air Filter that cost more than $60. If I had not been Blowing out the Air Filters ever 2 days we would have been throwing out those expensive Air Filters away. And, that was just one piece of equipment.

I forgot to mention that the expensive Air Filters can most often also be washed. I also did that when the Weather was hot enough fir them to dry fast.

All of the little Refer Diesel Generators at that place had Oil Bath Air Filters. What was not mentioned about the Air Bath Oil Filters is that as the Dirt settles to the bottom the Oil level rises.
If the Oil level rises high enough it starts to restrict the Air Flow.
__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel

Last edited by Diesel911; 06-28-2013 at 05:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-28-2013, 11:35 PM
4x4_Welder's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Poulsbo, WA
Posts: 504
If an oil bath air filter is far enough out of level, the oil can get sucked up and cause a runaway-
Automakers don't use K&Ns for two reasons- The oil contaminates the MAF wire, and they require frequent service that takes longer than having a LOF monkey swap paper filters.
The big problem with many paper filters is that people just get the cheapest one they can find, which generally has the smallest number of pleats. You want a lot of pleats to get a good life, the more surface area the more dirt trapping area, less restriction and longer life
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-29-2013, 02:45 AM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 28,800
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4_Welder View Post
If an oil bath air filter is far enough out of level, the oil can get sucked up and cause a runaway-
Automakers don't use K&Ns for two reasons- The oil contaminates the MAF wire, and they require frequent service that takes longer than having a LOF monkey swap paper filters.
The big problem with many paper filters is that people just get the cheapest one they can find, which generally has the smallest number of pleats. You want a lot of pleats to get a good life, the more surface area the more dirt trapping area, less restriction and longer life
Oddly My 92 Chevy Astro Van Vin W does not have that part so at no time when I was using the K&N did it cause any issues.
What I find odd about Air Filters is they say something like it removes 98% of the harmful contaminants; but. does not say down to what size particles it filters out as you find when you look at Oil Filter Ratings.
As an example an Oil Filter might say it is rated as a 22 Nominal Micron Filter; meaning it will filter out 50% of the 22 micron particles that pass through it.

Under that 98% system a Air Filter pass huge particles (because the particle size is not listed) through it as long as it Filtered out 98% of them.

Generic Air Filters for Industrial applications have a Micron Rating and average seems to be 15 Microns.
__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page