Need Help Finding Cause Of Wear in 92 Astro Van Differential - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Diesel911 · #1 10-22-2013, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

Well bad news.
The Motive Gears Gear Set is made in India.

Worse than that the new Spider Gears fit on the shaft is 0.0035 sloppier than the worn Spider Gears even when measured when Measured over an un-worn part of the original Spider Gear Shaft.
The OD of the New Side Gears Bearing Area is 0.001 smaller than the Worn Bearing Area Outside Diameter on the old Side Gears.

My measurements. I have a 0-1 Venire and the Side Gear OD was measured with a 1-2 inch Mandrel Micrometer.
Original Spider (small Gears) Gear Shaft Outside Diameter measured in a unworn area with a Venire Micrometer 0.764”

Old Worn Spider Gear Bearing Bore #1 Gear0.7705”
Clearance between Spider Gear #1 gear, and unworn portion of the old Shaft 0.0065

Old Worn Spider Gear Bearing Bore #2, gear 0.7707”
Clearance between Spider Gear #2 and unworn portion of the old Shaft 0.0067”

New Spider Gear Shaft 0.7645”

New Spider Gear Bearing Bore #1, 0.7745”
Clearance between Spider Gear Shaft and Spider Gear #1, 0.0100
New Spider Gear Bearing Bore, #2 0.7740”
Clearance between Spider Gear Shaft and Spider Gear #2, 0.0095

The larges clearance between the Old Gears and old shaft is 0.0065
The largest Clearance between the New Gears and New Shaft is 0.0100

That means the New Gear and Shaft Clearance is 0.0035” sloppier than the old worn Gears and Shaft????
In shot it is as if the new gear and shaft have what is like 0.0035” of wear more than the old Gear and Shaft.

Measurement of the Differential Side Gear Outside Diameter of the Bearing area.
Old right worn Side Gear Bearing Area Outside Diameter 1.495”
Old Left worn Side Gear Bearing area Outside Diameter 1.498”

Both of the New Side Gear Bearing Area Outside Diameter is 1.497.

The New Side Gear Bearing Ares is 0.001 smaller than the Old worn Gear bearing Area. This means the New Gears will fit sloppier than the old worn gears would.

Well what is worse than new parts that are sloppier than the Original Used parts?
They answer is that you buy a New Spider Gear Kit from USA Standard Gear (USAStandardGear.com) and find that when you get it assembled the Gears will not turn unless you tap them with an Aluminum Punch.

Worse in the add of the eBay Seller it has they want a 15% restocking charge plus they want you to pay the shipping back to the with the same packaging. The Original Box the Gears came in is larger than a Flat Rate Box meaning it is going to cost more than the Fat Rate would to ship.

USA Standard Gears Website has not "contact us" section on it. Although I found if you bugger up the part number in the search feature a Telephone number comes up.
Since I would rather communicate with Email (you have a record of that) instead of the Telephone I plugged the Telephone number into a google search.
It lead to a different company; one of the Sales Emails.
http://www.ringpinion.com/About/Sales.aspx

The USA Standard Gears did have a list of distributors and I emailed the local one with My problem and ask them for a Email address to the USA Standard Gear support.

I got the gear set about 5 days ago but this time I made sure I did not leave Feedback until I tried the Gears.

Today I Emailed the Company and told them My problem and said I was not going to ship the Gears Back to them due to the total expense of their return policy. I also explained the lack of a contact us on the USA Std. Gear site and ask them to provide one.
I also said I was going to decide what type of Feedback I was going to leave within the next 2 Days.
Less then one Hour later they refunded all I had spend and did not ask for the return of the Gear set.
So at least that part is over with.

I have had problems with New Gear stets X2 and gotten no where as far as getting My Van fixed.
I am thinking on dumping the whole Gear issue and getting a Limited slip Differential Carrier but have not done the parts survey on that.

In the Mean time My Tool situation to do the Job has improved some.

Stretch · #2 10-10-2013, 03:09 AM

I'm not sure if I understand what you're measuring but you know that you need to put shims behind the gears to get them in the correct position don't you?

Diesel911 · #3 10-10-2013, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stretch

I'm not sure if I understand what you're measuring but you know that you need to put shims behind the gears to get them in the correct position don't you?

The Shims are for preloading Bearing and setting Gear Teeth Clearances and Pinion Gear depth.
That has nothing to do with the Bore Inside Diameter of a Gear compared to the Shaft Outside Diameter.

The Sider Gears are the 2 small Gears that rotate on the Central Shaft. One of the New Gears to Shaft Clearance is 0.0100" the other as a clearance is 0.0095".

The Motive Gear Company already responded to My Email. The confirmed My measurements are the same as theirs and are going to see what the Factory Specs are.
I am wondering if someone made a mistake and manufactured the new parts to the Wear Limit instead of the New Part Limits?

Motive Gear Parts GM7.6BI
“Original Spider (small Gears) Gear Shaft Outside Diameter measured in a unworn area with a Venire Micrometer 0.764”
Old Worn Spider Gear Bearing Bore #1 Gear0.7705”
Clearance between Spider Gear #1 gear, and unworn portion of the old Shaft 0.0065
Old Worn Spider Gear Bearing Bore #2, gear 0.7707”
Clearance between Spider Gear #2 and unworn portion of the old Shaft 0.0067”
New Spider Gear Shaft 0.7645”
New Spider Gear Bearing Bore #1, 0.7745”
Clearance between Spider Gear Shaft and Spider Gear #1, 0.0100
New Spider Gear Bearing Bore, #2 0.7740”
Clearance between Spider Gear Shaft and Spider Gear #2, 0.0095
The larges clearance between the Old Gears and old shaft is 0.0065
The largest Clearance between the New Gears and New Shaft is 0.0100
That means the New Gear and Shaft Clearance is 0.0035” sloppier than the old worn Gears and Shaft????
In shot it is as if the new gear and shaft have what is like 0.0035” of wear more than the old Gear and Shaft.
Measurement of the Differential Side Gear Outside Diameter of the Bearing area.
Old right worn Side Gear Bearing Area Outside Diameter 1.495”
Old Left worn Side Gear Bearing area Outside Diameter 1.498”
Both of the New Side Gear Bearing Area Outside Diameter is 1.497.
The New Side Gear Bearing Ares is 0.001 smaller than the Old worn Gear bearing Area. This means the New Gears will fit sloppier than the old worn gears would.
MRA (Merchandise Return Authorizations) which will be issued to via email from U.S. Parts Outlet. All items must be returned in original packaging to be considered "New", if an item is sent back in anything other than the original packaging we have the right to refuse the part. MRA's expire 30 days after date of issue. In the event that an MRA expires, a new MRA must be requested in order to return product to U.S. Parts Outlet.
　
Motive Gear Response to My Email
Good Day Mr. Innerbickler,
Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience that this may have caused, and thank you for taking time to send us your information.
I have confirmed your kit’s dimensions locally, and will forward this information to our quality control lab to check our current stock to see if this falls outside of the manufacturer’s tolerances.
Thanks,
Tom Campion
Distribution Center Manager – Texas”
Midwest Truck & Auto Parts, Inc.
An ISO 9001:2008 Certified Company
15600 Trinity Blvd #108
Fort Worth, TX 76155
Corporate: 800-934-2727
Local: 817-566-0300
Direct: 817-566-0301
Fax: 817-571-9572
tcampion@midwesttruck.com
　
　

Stretch · #4 10-11-2013, 03:04 AM

Well that's not good is it? Best of luck getting a solution - I hope they help you out.

Diesel911 · #5 10-11-2013, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stretch

Well that's not good is it? Best of luck getting a solution - I hope they help you out.

Yes. The solution is to get a good set of Gears.
I have been having problems with My Computer and it won't let Me leave Feed Back on ebay (where I bought the Gear Kit).

So I was already on My way to the Library to use the Computer when the Package with the Gears Arrived. I took a quick look and went to the Library and left good Feedback.

Later when I found the Spider Gears rattled on the Shaft and pulled out the Micrometers and so on I discoverd the too much clearance issues.

Since I had already left good Feedback I lost My leverage to netotiate with the Seller to pay for the return Shipping.
I just came back from shipping the Gear Kit Back and it was about $12.75 USD.

So I will be putting this project asside till I hear from the Motive Gear Company that made the Kit.
If it turns out that I discovered a problem for them they might compensete Me a new Kit properly machined.

I had a similar fitment problem with Laser Fuel Injection Delivery Valve Sockets I bought frou the UK. They would not go over the Delivery Valve Holders like they were supposed to.
I took a buch of measuerments of the Laser Socket and the Hazet socket and Emailed the Laser company and ask the why they did not simply copy the dimensiond of the Hazet Socket.
It took about 3 months but the sent me 5 free sockets.

In the that time I was also able to fix the ones with the wrong dimensions and I slold most of them.

Except for the Gear Kit all the rest of the Parts have arrived except that I am waiting for a Speciall Tool.
They had the used Tool on ebay at auction for $80 USD. I looked up the Tool and the cheapest I could find one New was $555.00 USD +shipping!

So I bid on the Tool and got it for $80 with free shipping as no one else bid on it.

I am wondering if I can make some copies of that Tool to sell.

Diesel911 · #6 10-22-2013, 08:30 PM

I bought a used Tool as shown in the Diagram. When you are shimming and spacing the Differential Carrier in the Differential you stick this Tool on one side white no spacers or shims. The Tool has opposing wedges and sort of expands and it pushes the differential carrier to the side.
When you have filled the space with the Tool you pull it out and Measure it with a Micrometer and that tells you what sized Shim/Spacer pack you need (at least it is a starting point).
The Tool Cost Me $80 (shipped free) on eBay. I did some Google Searches and the Cheapest new Tool was $555; one place wanted over $700 for the Tool new.

Stretch · #7 10-23-2013, 06:14 AM

Any chance of a picture of the tool in action?

It doesn't do the pinion position does it?

Diesel911 · #8 10-23-2013, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stretch

Any chance of a picture of the tool in action?

It doesn't do the pinion position does it?

I am not to the point where I can take a Picture and when I looked I on the Internet I did not see one of it in use. There is a small pic in the Manual.
You stick it in where the Shim Pack would go on the Differential Carrier.

It may or may not be helpful with the Pinion and Ring Gear Back Lash.
I don't think it would be helpful for that because the Carrier, Bearings, Spacer, and Shims all need to be in place and the Bearing Caps torqued in order for the Backlash to be accurate.

There is several Tools in the Pinion depth Tool kit to figure out which Shims go behind the inner Pinion Shaft Race.
However, I am not changing the inner Pinion Bearing or the Pinion and Ring Gear so that should already be set.
I am replacing the Outer Pinion Bearing set. But, that will not change the Pinion Depth.

Here is a used Tool the same as I bought sold at $175.
http://www.penybonttools.com/apps/webstore/products/show/2624401

Diesel911 · #9 10-23-2013, 03:59 PM

OK I took some pics of the Manual on how the Shim Tool is used.

The first pic shows a top view of the Tool being inserted at the left end of the Differential Carrier and in the Shim/Spacer Area. You stick it in there with no Shims/Spacers.

You adjust the tool to take up the space and pull it out and measure the thickness of the Tool and it go find some Shims/Spacers that fit that size.

Stretch · #10 10-26-2013, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

OK I took some pics of the Manual on how the Shim Tool is used.

The first pic shows a top view of the Tool being inserted at the left end of the Differential Carrier and in the Shim/Spacer Area. You stick it in there with no Shims/Spacers.

You adjust the tool to take up the space and pull it out and measure the thickness of the Tool and it go find some Shims/Spacers that fit that size.

Oh now it is much clearer!

Diesel911 · #11 10-23-2013, 04:23 PM

Where the Carrier Bearings riding too high in the bearing Race?

First Pic the old Bearing Race.

The next pic is the New Bearing Race. I could not find My Prussian Blue so I smeared Chapstick on the Bearing Race; inserted the Bearing and rolled it.
You can see from the area where the Rollers did not contact at the bottom and compare it to the worn area on the old bearing Race and you see that the are the same.

Idle · #12 10-23-2013, 06:13 PM

A bit late to the party, but my solution has always been to toss the entire thing and replace it with a limited slip from a wrecking yard.

The difficult part is locating a limited slip, but swapping out the unit is routinely a one hour job.

Diesel911 · #13 10-23-2013, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idle

A bit late to the party, but my solution has always been to toss the entire thing and replace it with a limited slip from a wrecking yard.

The difficult part is locating a limited slip, but swapping out the unit is routinely a one hour job.

From Post #33; "I am thinking on dumping the whole Gear issue and getting a Limited slip Differential Carrier but have not done the parts survey on that."
I have been thinking about that also.
But, I read that some People like to burn Rubber and it uses up the limited Slip Differential fast. Maybe that would not happen Van.

What I really need are 2 good Side Gears.

I am also left with a free Spider Gear Kit that does not fit. If I can find a way to remove some metal from the back of the little Spider Gears I believe I could use the Kit. The bugger is the back of the Gears are hemispherical. I can't think of an accurate way to remove the Metal.

I could also gain Clearance by facing off (I have a Lathe) the Side Gear where it mates with the Carrier; where the thrust Washer Goes but that would move the Gears away and make the C-washer lock not as good and the Axle would have more in and out play.

Unlucky for me the Aftermarket company made the shape of the Gear Teeth on their Side Gears different so I cannot just use the old small Spider Gears.

Diesel911 · #14 10-23-2013, 08:41 PM

An other option is that a local Shop Welcome to Racerpartsworld.com | Long beach, CA is about 4 miles away from me. They carry the USA Std. Gear Sets (the last set that would not fit).

The are a distributor of that company's Gear sets. I need to take it to them and see what they say. Maybe there was a bad run of parts or parts got mixed up.

They put the Gears on a Cardboard and sort of bubble packaged it and stick the whole Cardboard in a Box. However, there is no sort of part number on the Card Board. To me that means someone could stick the wrong gears into the Box with the correct Part Number on it.

97 SL320 · #15 10-25-2013, 05:59 PM

I'd say.

The side gears / 1 c clip is not OE GM, and one shaft has been replaced.

OE side gears are made from powerded metal and look like they were compression molded and likely have no final machining. The one you have looks like it was machined around the tips of the gear and, the seat for the C clip is on a taper making for a small contact area.

The c clip should be very hard, take a file to a unworn portion of the clip, it should not make a groove. ( or much of one ) Is the left c clip worn on both sides? If so it was flipped over at some point.

Since the axle splines into the side gear, the c clip does not spin against the side gear but there are some pretty heavy forces trying to pull the axle out of the gear. The wear you have is more from lateral forces pounding the clip than any rotation.

The lower part of the splines are shaped differently making me think one was replaced.

Bearing wear looks OK, but I'd replace them and _NOT_use China bearings.