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  #31  
Old 02-26-2014, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by pj67coll View Post
Except they didn't depose the TB. The TB simply jumped the "non existent" fence to Pakistan and bided their time. Hence we would have been back already in that scenario. And, given that they will take over the place again once the US leaves it will all go down the ****ter again soon. So we'll be back within a couple of years.

- Peter.

Be back with WHAT? Our military will be virtually non existent by then.
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  #32  
Old 02-26-2014, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Air&Road View Post
Be back with WHAT? Our military will be virtually non existent by then.
That might be a slight exaggeration. 2010 Defense Spending by Country

I picked that graph from countless others that make the same point. I'm thinking that Hagel's proposed 13% reduction in one branch of our military won't lead to a non-existent US military.

My sense is that we should reduce the size of the Army, keep military spending as is, and use the money to take proper care of the military and its veterans.

As for Afghanistan, Larry, I think you are the only one who didn't see something like this coming. They've been negotiating that agreement forever.
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  #33  
Old 02-26-2014, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Air&Road View Post
Be back with WHAT? Our military will be virtually non existent by then.

so you refuse to believe monetary data, or consider cost saving analysis of our military spending could result in some savings while pretty much doing nothing to reduce our military capability?

Even when FACT demonstrates that we spend more money on defense and military than the next 10 nations minimum combined on a world scale? You don't think we could save a teensy bit of that money to pay down our staggering national debt? What was the point of the withdrawal of troops from two foreign wars?
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  #34  
Old 02-26-2014, 10:46 AM
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Here's Senator Bernie Sanders (I-VT), making sense, as usual:
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“We have made progress but we still have a long way to go if we are to keep faith with those who have put their lives on the line to defend us,” Sanders said in a Senate floor speech before the vote [on legislation expanding health care, education, employment and other benefits for veterans]. “I hope very much that we will go down that road together, that we will tell the American people that at least on this one issue we can stand together and protect the interests of those people who have sacrificed so much for our country.”

After the vote, Sanders reacted to Republican senators who want to inject a debate over Iran sanctions into the measure on veterans programs. “We can have honest differences on how to address veterans issues, but it is disrespectful to the millions of veterans in this country to introduce an extraneous provision on Iran sanctions,” Sanders said. “The American people have had enough of silly partisan politics. Let’s focus on veterans issues.”

Veterans Bill Clears Senate Hurdle - Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont
Sanders is a freaking socialist and yet he is one of the few in Congress who actually makes sense when he speaks.
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  #35  
Old 02-26-2014, 10:50 AM
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What's the saying? "You can't buy an Afghani, you can only lease them."
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  #36  
Old 02-26-2014, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by pj67coll View Post
Want has nothing to do with it.

- Peter.
What would be the reason to put boots back on the ground again and do you really think that's political feasible in two years from now?
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  #37  
Old 02-26-2014, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by pj67coll View Post
Except they didn't depose the TB. The TB simply jumped the "non existent" fence to Pakistan and bided their time. Hence we would have been back already in that scenario. And, given that they will take over the place again once the US leaves it will all go down the ****ter again soon. So we'll be back within a couple of years.

- Peter.
Perhaps we do not share a common definition of "depose."

Take the Napoleonic Wars with England, for example. Napoleon deposed all sorts of monarchs and nobility. Most fled to England. They continued to exist and served English propaganda. After Napoleon was deposed most of them didn't regain the lost power, though most of them returned to their native land. Some did return to rule.

Napoleon himself was deposed and imprisoned then got back into power and caused problems. But he could not regain his full power and authority.

So yeah, the Taliban will return. Heck, they've been returning for over a decade (and becoming garden mulch). Most of the original leaders are dead or have been so out of touch that it is unlikely they will return to the power they previously held. Though they will likely gain control of some of the provinces along the border with the Paks, where Pashtuns have traditionally lived and ruled.

The Afghans of other ethnic and language groups are in stronger positions than they were 10 years ago. It is unlikely that the Taliban will be able to regain power over them.

A mess? Clearly. There will be opportunity for military interventionists to justify entering the country. But is that in our current national interest? I don't think so. Unless the folks in Afghanistan harbor and train folks to attack the USA again. At that point you send in the drones, CIA and SF. Kill as much of the leadership as possible and then get out.

Repeat as necessary.
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  #38  
Old 02-26-2014, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Jorn View Post
What would be the reason to put boots back on the ground again and do you really think that's political feasible in two years from now?
Read Bot's reply to me above. He enumerates it well I think. However he thinks the TB will not be strong enough to control the whole country. I disagree. Either way the place will devolve into chaos and provide succor for AQ and other jihadi groups as before so eventually we will wind up having to deal with them as before. Bot think's this can be done by playing whack a mole with drones an special forces. I say it can't and mission creep is inevitable. Time will tell who is right.

- Peter.
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  #39  
Old 02-26-2014, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by pj67coll View Post
Read Bot's reply to me above. He enumerates it well I think. However he thinks the TB will not be strong enough to control the whole country. I disagree. Either way the place will devolve into chaos and provide succor for AQ and other jihadi groups as before so eventually we will wind up having to deal with them as before. Bot think's this can be done by playing whack a mole with drones an special forces. I say it can't and mission creep is inevitable. Time will tell who is right.

- Peter.
Against my argument is most of American history, in which mission creep is a common attribute. But it hasn't always been that way. Take gunboat diplomacy, for example. The marines went in, kicked ass, and then left. It sure didn't endear us to the local dictatorships but it served to protect American commercial interests.

Another argument against involvement in Afghanistan is that we have no compelling commercial or strategic interest in the godforsaken place, except when nut jobs allow and facilitate training of people who intend to do us harm. That's a high investment, low profit venture.
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  #40  
Old 02-26-2014, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Against my argument is most of American history, in which mission creep is a common attribute. But it hasn't always been that way. Take gunboat diplomacy, for example. The marines went in, kicked ass, and then left. It sure didn't endear us to the local dictatorships but it served to protect American commercial interests.

Another argument against involvement in Afghanistan is that we have no compelling commercial or strategic interest in the godforsaken place, except when nut jobs allow and facilitate training of people who intend to do us harm. That's a high investment, low profit venture.
Oh.

I forgot which country had all those opium fields for the insatiable American drug addicts.

And whose military endeavors are funded from the profits therefrom.

Can you tell me?
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  #41  
Old 02-26-2014, 07:35 PM
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Oh.

I forgot which country had all those opium fields for the insatiable American drug addicts.

And whose military endeavors are funded from the profits therefrom.

Can you tell me?
I don't know.
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  #42  
Old 02-26-2014, 07:45 PM
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I don't know.
Yes you do, but you are upholding the Clinton "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy.

Aren't choo?
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  #43  
Old 02-26-2014, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Against my argument is most of American history, in which mission creep is a common attribute. But it hasn't always been that way. Take gunboat diplomacy, for example. The marines went in, kicked ass, and then left. ...
No reason it can't be that way in the future. I find it hard to believe that our leaders are so worthless that they have no ability to avoid mission creep. Our strength is in the 21st Century version of gun boats. We should stick with our strengths.
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  #44  
Old 02-26-2014, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Honus View Post
No reason it can't be that way in the future. I find it hard to believe that our leaders are so worthless that they have no ability to avoid mission creep. Our strength is in the 21st Century version of gun boats. We should stick with our strengths.
I agree, but evidence to the contrary suggests otherwise.
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  #45  
Old 02-27-2014, 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
Oh.

I forgot which country had all those opium fields for the insatiable American drug addicts.

And whose military endeavors are funded from the profits therefrom.

Can you tell me?
Maybe we could just bomb the poppy fields and drop bags of food to replace the income.

I always thought if we had dropped rice instead of bombs in Vietnam it would be better.
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