You see, you read into my post and now expect me to start defending myself. I asked what you liberals thought was a reasonable amount.

I'm still waiting for the answer, as, all of the yapping here clearly indicates that they have investigated it and found it to be unreasonable.

So......what is a reasonable price....????? Heck, just tell me what the price was that Haliburton was charging....that's probably above the ability of those decrying the charges.

Face it, I have pointed out that liberals are howling over this issue and they don't even know how much was being charged and what that compares to in the public marketplace.

You want more out of me, answer the question.


It takes a special kind of stupid to be a liberal.

__________________
1998 W202 C230 - The money pit of late.
1984 W126 300SD (356,800 miles) Gone to the wrenchapart
1984 W123 300D Gone to the wrenchapart
1972 W108 280SE 3.5 (sold but not forgotten)
1986 Buick Grand National 3.8l Turbo (86k miles)
1966 Glassic Model 'A' Replica http://www.glassicannex.org

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ok...I'll bite.....site your source....show me the numbers that prove that Haliburton continues to grossly overcharge the government.....and while your at it, tell me who it is that is not disputing it....and is there anyone that WOULD dispute it? (because if there is, then that would mean that this comment is an outright falsehood...the liberal way of saying a lie.......
Wait......wait.......is this comment supposed to mean that 'everyone does it'??????
You want me to feel concerned about this, show me the provable link that they are making money on the deal.....not some tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist blog, but honest and well investigated proof.....and no, Michael "wouldn't know the truth if he ate it for breakfast" Moore is NOT an honest investigator.
Only if that logical thinker believes that there is another company in the US that could have done what Haliburton has done as quickly as they did it......but that would require even more investigation to find out if anyone else could have done it.....
and your unsubstantiated hunch is enough for all of us to believe some nefarious trick was played on us????? I'm sorry, but I don't know that your hunches have enough backing them to be believed....for all I know, you're an eight year old neighbor of John Kerry, trying to earn 50 cents from ol JFK for typing online....
Again, give verifiable proof that GHWB is somehow gaining financially from this (outside of what his investments would have already have gained)...
Well, billy boy never worked in the public sector, so how could he have ever had that kind of "arrangement"???? Face it, he's been taken care of his entire life by taxpayers money, which he found a lot of way of investing....like in chicken....land deals......etc....but you can't have stock options if you've never been employed by a real company!

__________________
1998 W202 C230 - The money pit of late.
1984 W126 300SD (356,800 miles) Gone to the wrenchapart
1984 W123 300D Gone to the wrenchapart
1972 W108 280SE 3.5 (sold but not forgotten)
1986 Buick Grand National 3.8l Turbo (86k miles)
1966 Glassic Model 'A' Replica http://www.glassicannex.org

http://banners.wunderground.com/weat...Round_Rock.gif

You mean like the democRats did for over 40 years......a period in our history that saw our students scores plummet, teen pregnancy skyrocket, unwed motherhood and deadbeat dads explode?

Is that what you mean by controlling all 3 branches of government?

Since the Republicans are unable to get their choices for Federal Judges out on the floor for a full vote, that must be one of the symptoms of controlling all 3 branches.....yeah....right......

When GWB wins reelection in a landslide and the republicans widen their hold on the Congress and Senate, perhaps then we can see what good can be done for this country, but we have a long ways to go to overcome the mess made out of this country Since the 40's and 50's.

__________________
1998 W202 C230 - The money pit of late.
1984 W126 300SD (356,800 miles) Gone to the wrenchapart
1984 W123 300D Gone to the wrenchapart
1972 W108 280SE 3.5 (sold but not forgotten)
1986 Buick Grand National 3.8l Turbo (86k miles)
1966 Glassic Model 'A' Replica http://www.glassicannex.org

http://banners.wunderground.com/weat...Round_Rock.gif

Credibility, Going ,going, gone! You're obviously willing to overlook the facts and throw invective around as well as dodge answering the questions put to you.
I'd respond to you but you're not worth wasting the time. You are a shining example of another thread on here, specifically the one stating that Democrats are smarter than Republicans. You evidently fall into the category of "mindless sheep"republican not thoughtful, rational republican of which there are several that can intelligently articulate and defend their side without name calling and actually contribute something to the debate.
You're too new to remember VADUDE (or are you?) but the delusion you show would make him proud.

Fuzzball, are you sure you haven't been puffing on Rush's crack pipe? . Quit puffing, and check your facts. Student test scores in math and science have been falling, not rising while the Republicans have been in power. Unwanted pregnancies are down thanks to the Democrats who gave pregnant teenagers and "unwed mothers " the option of obtaining birth control and obtaining safe and legal abortions when necessary, instead of dealing with the problem by either having unwanted children or dying in a coat hanger abortion. I hardly think it is because anyone is "abstaining from sex", which is the official Republican philosphy on how to deal with these problems. As far as the judges go, if Bush didn't push a bunch of anti-women homophopic fascists as nominees into the face of the moderates in the Senate, he might attract the votes of the one or two moderate democrats he needed to get them thru. Instead, he puts up Limbaugh clones. A real "uniter". I also wouldn't be looking for any landslides this year if I were you.

Oh, so you were just curious what "we" "liberals" thought was a reasonable amount? Sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought you were trying to actually make a point.

I'm sure we liberals could never come up with an actual number to support our claim, but, check this out - here's a link to an article that says that the crazy liberal George W. Bush agrees with us.

In one of your posts, you asked for evidence to support the charge that Halliburton continues to overcharge, well, click here.

According to the Defense Contract Auditing Agency and Democrat Henry Waxman at a time when Iraqis were paying about 4 to 11 cents at the pump, the Army was paying Halliburton about $1.60 for about 50 million gallons. Even when you account for the high transportation costs, Halliburton was at least 66 cents a gallon too high.

Who says this kind of crap? Really, why would you say something like that? And why does everybody keep calling me a liberal?

5 democrat presidents and 6 republican presidents since 1945.

And yes we live in a mess since the 40's, is that's why we are exporting our values to the middle east......?

__________________
1979 Black on Black, 300CD (sold), 1990 Black 300SE, Silver 1989 Volvo 780, 1988 300CE (vanished by the hands of a girlfriend), 1992 300CE (Rescue).

Fuzzball,

I am having a hard time understanding why you are throwing the "Travelgate" issue up on the table at all. You seem to be indicating you think there is something wrong with the idea of awarding contracts without competitive bidding on the one hand, but then do not seem to think it is so bad, on the other. If you think it is bad, what was the point of bringing it up? Just say so. Or, if you think it is ok, then just say that. But dragging a red herring across the floor is not making any kind of case for your position.

I concluded the act of charging for meals that were not provided sounds like it is overcharging. Divide the charge by the service provided, and anything divided by zero is too much. As far as the rest of the deals go, if there was wrong doing it will be made known, and Haliburton will repay what they wrongfully obtained.

Just to be fair, there is some truth to the argument about government contracting being an onerous exercise. In short, the government "businessmen" running these procurements are generally incompetent. In recognition of that the government rules (the Federal Acquisition Regulations for the most part) are written to make sure the government can renegotiate at any time, and if you get caught making "too good a deal" you get slapped and can even spend some time in jail.

In response you find government contractors learn how to be just on the edge of the line, and, when that creates the image of being "too good a deal" for the contractor, the auditors and "renegotiators" use a public forum, like the newspapers and TV to create bad will toward the contractor. The process is very much like training your dog, except that the punishment can lag behind the bad deed by many years. So, if Haliburton is off base or even appears off base, they will eventually pay for it and they know it. The civil servants that run these things are not about to miss an opportunity like this to make a name for themselves. And they can wait until the contract closes out, which will definitely be after GWB leaves the Whitehouse, to make their move.

Overall the government contracting is carried out in a manner that breeds poor businessmen in the contractor's facilities as well. One of the main reasons is you can earn more by knowing the system than you can win in "competitive procurements" because no matter how good you are you will never be allowed to put a competitor out of business, or win more than your mathematical share. This ends up with a more socialist or even nearly communist type of economic system that grows around the government, with the Department of Defense often the most visible.

As military spending decreased after the cold war this phenomena became deeply rooted in the defense industry. Lots of mergers and acquisitions resulted in a few basically giant contractors. These guys use their Senators and Congressmen to keep lousy programs alive while new programs are developed and run into cost overruns and schedule delays. The process even persists when the replacement platform procurement is cancelled.

If you look at the "competitive procurements" in any of the weapons systems over time, there are very few cases where the the winners take all. Occasionally such a program is announced, but nearly all of them end up being cut back until a suitable replacement that can be shared is identified. The military is not to blame here, it is the lawmakers who will hold back funding when a decision is made on merit that adversely affects their constituents. As a matter of fact, over time the "competitors" essentially share the pot equally, again using the DCAA rules to make sure the companies in California get the same manhours for a job, but at a higher rate than someone across the country with lower labor rates, because the cost of living there is higher and the rules allow for it. In the end there is no incentive to be good at anything, just big with lots of connections to Congress. There is no real incentive to invest in facilities and tools or more efficient manufacturing systems, since your investment could reduce the manhours needed to accomplish the job, and adversely affect sales and profits. As a result, even such "good ideas" are only used if their development and implementation is funded directly, and then shared with the competition. Stand back and it looks very unlike the capitalist system used in the private sector.

So, be properly outraged when you hear of Haliburton cheating the government, but don't dump the whole load at Haliburton's feet. The devil is in the details and there are way too many of them to make the headlines unless you see headlines in very small fonts coming soon. But be assured the process is being followed, and eventually Halliburton will be paid only what the auditors let them have.

Now, the issue of Cheney and his role in all this is another story. Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
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1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
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2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
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1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

Posted by Fuzzball: You mean like the democRats did for over 40 years......a period in our history that saw our students scores plummet, teen pregnancy skyrocket, unwed motherhood and deadbeat dads explode?

Is that what you mean by controlling all 3 branches of government?

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Has Fuzzball been inhabiting the same planet as the rest of us? Tell me, Fuzzball, of the specific consecutive years that Democrats held control all three branches of government simultaneously.

Joe B.

Great discussion guys!

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040216fa_fact

__________________
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1980 Lincoln Mark VI - Givenchy
1979 Lincoln Mark V Collector's Series
1979 Lincoln Town Car Collector's Series
1979 Ford "Effie" Pickup (in gradual transformation to a show/street truck)
1969 Lincoln Mark III (waiting for "Overhaulin" to call)
1989 Lincoln Towncar
2001 Lexus GS300 (spousal unit's daily driver)

You might be right about W getting re-elected and the Republicans widening their margins in the House and Senate. My faith in our system of government tells me you're wrong, but it could happen.

Exactly what was it about the 40's and 50's that you prefer to today? I'm sure we could benefit from some of the attitudes people had back then, but there were some problems with that era, don't you think?

I am sure going back to segregation and McCarthyism would appeal to some on this board.

Hmmm....your post is so full of nothing but air.

I specifically responded to the claim that the republicans own all three branches of government.

Do you know what the three branches are?

Executive: Republican
Legislative: Republican Majority
Judicial: Liberal Majority.

Call me names all you want (mindless sheep??) then attribute the namecalling to me, but the last party to have control over all three branches of government is the Democratic party.

So, you have now proven that you ignore facts...credibility never established and falling.

__________________
1998 W202 C230 - The money pit of late.
1984 W126 300SD (356,800 miles) Gone to the wrenchapart
1984 W123 300D Gone to the wrenchapart
1972 W108 280SE 3.5 (sold but not forgotten)
1986 Buick Grand National 3.8l Turbo (86k miles)
1966 Glassic Model 'A' Replica http://www.glassicannex.org

http://banners.wunderground.com/weat...Round_Rock.gif

Imagine this.... another political thread gone wildly off topic.
First the merits or lack thereof of Anthony Zinnis critique of the admin
Then the robbery or lack by halliburton
then travelgate
then who was the last political party to control all 3 branches of government

I give JimSmith props though. He seems to have a fairly well thought out view on things. I enjoy the posts.

Jim,

A very well thought out and stated post, thank you for the tone and content.

I am not a fan of the government procurement process at all. We end up with $500 toilet seats because the process requires that you provide very detailed specifications for the item you want, then, since what you want varies by 2/10ths of an inch from what someone is already producing, they include retooling costs into the price.

Competative bid is a good idea, but in practice, it is it's own worst enemy. When I want a printer noise suppresion cabinet and can pick one up on the economy for $50, the competative bid process says I can't just pick it up, I have to put it out for a bid. This not only delays meeting my needs, but will likely end up costing the government (read: the people) 3-5 times as much.

I am not justifying what is alleged of Haliburton, I'm only trying to show that some people will badmouth companies, people, etc. not based upon known fact, but based upon how they feel about them. Just like my travelgate commentary, I doubt that anyone that is today badmouthing Haliburton even cared about the travelgate issue, but I did. Not because of who did it or who got the workload, but because these were long time employees that had served for years and they were fired with no good reason, then had bogus charges trumped up against them. I could care less that buddies of the president were given the travel responsibility, but there had to be a better way to go about it.

So, I compared a Gala apple to a Red Delicious apple and some people freak out. They are both apples and, therefore, share some basic properties.

Anyways, I did appreciate the way you communicated....whether we agree or not (and I can't really tell yet) I do thank you for your restraint.

__________________
1998 W202 C230 - The money pit of late.
1984 W126 300SD (356,800 miles) Gone to the wrenchapart
1984 W123 300D Gone to the wrenchapart
1972 W108 280SE 3.5 (sold but not forgotten)
1986 Buick Grand National 3.8l Turbo (86k miles)
1966 Glassic Model 'A' Replica http://www.glassicannex.org

http://banners.wunderground.com/weat...Round_Rock.gif