euro engine size ?

[cardsnapper]

Is there any way to verify engine type in my 450 SE other than the engine # ? I'm assuming the euro's are numbered a little differently than american. I'm being told by my mechanic that I have the wrong fuel injectors for a 4.5 liter. He said check the engine #. If it starts with 117, it's a 4.5liter. If it starts with 116, it's a 3.5 liter. After 3 days of searching, and you guys' help, I found the number and I'm still confused! My # is 116 983 12 025131. In my Chilton repair manual the only two numbers it remotely matches is the american 450 SE (#117.983) and the 380 SE (#116.963). Does anyone out there happen to know what the heck mine is?! It seems to run fine, but I don't want to have the wrong injectors! I haven't had this car long, but know the engine has not been changed, and my mechanic seems to think the injectors that are in it are original. Any help is greatly apperciated!

Cardsnapper

[JimSmith]

Cardsnappper,

You will probably get more definitive responses from others in the forum. But there are no guarantees the outside trunk badging is accurate on any of these cars.

In Germany, where the numbers and letters have had more meaning to the average motorist than here, the US models that came out in the early 70's with the 450SL and 450SE or SEL designators on the trunk on European Delivery caused some engine displacement envy.

To address this replacement badges with the higher displacement indicators were hot items for a while. On the other hand, there were, I believe, US models with 350SL/SE/SEL badges for European delivery, that had the 4.5 liter engines, and they were rebadged by the dealer with the 450SL/SE/SEL badges as appropriate when they were serviced in this country.

Rebadging in this country is nothing new either, as you can find Ford, Nissans, Hondas and Toyotas with badges from various MB models. So, you may have a car labelled 450SE, that came from Germany with a German market 3.5 liter engine of that era installed.

Sounds like a stretch, but if you have the actual engine number off the block and it is from a 3.5 liter engine, I would conclude your engine is a 3.5 liter engine. Jim

[mbdoc]

Yes there are several different sizes. LOOK behind the LEFT
cylinder head STAMPED into the block for the engine number.
The 3.5 engines use "yellow" injectors & the 4.5 use "green" ones.
The 3.5 engines number will start off like 116.981-12.

[sixto]

If you got the engine number from behind the left cylinder head then you have a 3.5l D-Jetronic engine as MB DOC says.

A 116.983 engine would have come in a 72-75 350SE/SEL sedan. A 73-75 450SE would have a 117.983 engine.

One way to tell what car you have is by the VIN or chassis number (on the door pillar, radiator bracket, elsewhere on a 116?). A 450SE is a 116.032, a 350SE is a 116.028.

BTW, if you have a 116.983, it'll make more power than a US 450 will ever know. And a Euro car will have a 4 speed transmission.

In later years, 116 would also be the 3.8l and 4.2l engines, and 117 would also be the 5l and 5.6l engines. But none of these engines use electronic fuel injection. But this is a tangent.

Sixto
91 300SE
81 300SD
78 450SEL with 117.985-10 engine (Euro MT) (sold)

[RunningTooHot]

An M-116 iron block is a 3.5 liter. It's a sweet running engine - I had one in my long gone grey market 350SLC. Not as much torque as the U.S. spec 4.5s, but actually more HP, although at higher revs - and that motor just purrs once it comes up on the cam at around 4000 RPMs.

Ditto everything that M.B.Doc said except that the 4.5 injection components are blue, not green. (Unless I am colorblind, or unless they have changed the color codes. You never know....)

RTH

[cardsnapper]

Thanks guys!!!
Now it's starting to make sense! Yes, I have yellow injectors. I feel a lot better knowing they're the right ones! Now here's my question.....
I have a Chilton repair manual. There is no 3.5 liter or 350 SL/SE/SEL listed in it. Where would I find the tune up specs for it?
My car is a '75 450 SE. Did they not have a 350 in america during the mid '70's? Sorry if that's a dumb question, but I'm pretty new to the MB world and I'm trying to figure out why my car is a 450 yet has a 350 engine.
Thanks again for the help!

[RunningTooHot]

Unless someone replaced your engine with a 3.5 liter one in the past, which is unlikely, your car IS a 350SEL – a gray market car that was not originally brought into the US by MBZ. Not the horrible thing that some people may make it out to be, IMO.

Make sure that the canister that measures manifold vacuum for the injection system is also a yellow color-coded one. As far as tune up specs go, I THINK ignition timing is 10 or 12 degrees BTDC – don’t count that as absolute fact, as I am going on memory here, and that is NOT a good thing . On my ’73 I had to adjust the valves, but I _think_ that your 1975 may have hydraulic lifters – again, not sure when they went hydraulic (it may have been 76?). Check the condition of the injection trigger points in the bottom part of the distributor – often times oil will get in there and contaminate them. Just clean them up with some electrical contact cleaner. I found that the best spark plugs to use were one heat range lower than the US spec cars.

Have Fun!

RTH

[sixto]

Check the first six digits of the VIN/chassis number. It'll tell you exactly what you have.

In any case, the M116 was available in the US from 68-71 in the 280SE 3.5 coupe and cabrio (W112) and 300SEL 3.5 sedan (W109). Maybe the W112 was available through 72. The early US 350SL had the 4.5l M117. Those cars were recalled to have the badge upgraded to 450SL. While popular elsewhere in the world, the real 350SE and SEL (W116) as well as the real 350SL and SLC were not officially sold in the US.

Try to locate a factory owner's manual for the car you have. www.schiffeuropean.com will probably have an English owner's manual for your car. You might get lucky on ebay. Take it with a grain of salt as your car might get a UK spec manual for your (hypothetically) Austrian spec car.

I have a hardcopy M116/7 engine manual at home. If there's anything I can look up for you, let me know. I'm pretty sure tune up specs are in another volume of the MB shop manual series, though.

Sixto
91 300SE
81 300SD
tabijan@yahoo.com

[cardsnapper]

I did happen to get lucky enough to win a ebay auction for a owner's manual for a 450 SE (which is what my car is badged as). It only costed me $15.00! Do I need to get one for a model that has a 3.5 liter in it, or can I use the specs for the 450? The first six digits to my VIN# are 116 028.

[sixto]

116.028 means you have a 350SE. I wouldn't trust a 450SE manual for engine tune specs particularly if you have a US market owner's manual. I'll bet the 3.5l engine and 4.5l engine are tuned to the same specs, but I'll also bet those specs are different for US and nonUS cars.

Sixto
91 300SE
81 300SD

[cardsnapper]

Basically, We just got the 450 manual so we would know what all of the console buttons and stuff do. As far as tune up goes, I'm planning on having a shop do it. If they take it in as a 450, should I just tell them it has a 350 in it and let them tune it to those specs? I didn't get any paperwork with this car to say so, but from what we've found so far, this car has been modified to US standards, i.e. emission controls, american headlights, safety glass, etc. Just for a little useless info, one strange thing we've ran in to is when we went to the german auto specialist and asked for a quart of hydro-pneumatic leveling fluid the guy looked at us kind of strange (he knows what kind of car it is) After a lot of explaining about this huge looking reservoir towards the front drivers side of the engine compartment, he agreed that it was indeed epuipped with a hydro-pnuematic leveling system, but he said he would have sworn that that model didn't have it. Do you know if that's true? or was he just mistaken?