Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Tech Help

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-31-2009, 07:39 AM
88Black560SL
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: CT
Posts: 3,510
BAS Theory of Operation and How to Bleed

The bottom line is I'm trying to figure out how to bleed this master cylinder which comes from a 1996 SL600. This master has a bleeder valve and an electrical connection for a switch having something to do with the SL600's BAS system.

This particular master is installed on a 560SL which uses the same power booster as the 96 SL600. The electric switch is not connected and it is desired to use this master in a standard mode. It should create a higher pedal due to the larger pistons. The result so far is a slightly lower pedal.

I have tried bleeding the master in the standard way but next to nothing comes out of that valve. I believe I have to activate the switch but I am not sure if this is 12V or 5V and which terminal is + and which is -.

For the 1996 SL600 the BAS is integrated with ESP and there is no vacuum diaphragm position sensor. For some reason this switch identified as Y61 in the attached link does not show up in my wire diagram for for the 96 SL600 ESP system PE42-45-U-2000-60YA.

So can anyone tell me the best way to power this switch before I start guessing and possibly shorting things out.

http://www.qclt.com/train/w202/w202/tractcontrol/bas.htm

Attached Thumbnails
BAS Theory of Operation and How to Bleed-pict0060.jpg  
__________________
To see my 129 parts for sale visit:
http://stores.ebay.com/The-Mercedes-SL-Store
John Roncallo
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-31-2009, 01:08 PM
JayRash's Avatar
DON'T PANIC
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Beirut, Lebanon
Posts: 1,281
if the switch is on the master cyl, i think its for brake bias.
It uses 5 volt input to send 37% iirc to the rear, it is computer controled and uses G force sens.
As long as decel forces and cornering forces are below 0.5 Gs brake bias to the rear is abt 37% or so.
Once beyond that threshhold the 5volt input is shut and brake bias is restored to 27% to prevent the rear from
overtaking the front

i do know mrec used this sort of tech on ASR cars from late 1995 i think.

As for the polarity i really doubt it makes any diff how u connect it. If one tterminal is wider i would assume its
the live one.
But i guess u know that. Just make sure u use 5volts cause that i do remember clearly cause my mechaninc
refused to install this master on my W124 for fear of me keepin the increased bias active and sendin my ass into some high speed spin.
__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed

Last edited by JayRash; 10-31-2009 at 01:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-31-2009, 02:27 PM
88Black560SL
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: CT
Posts: 3,510
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayRash View Post
if the switch is on the master cyl, i think its for brake bias.
It uses 5 volt input to send 37% iirc to the rear, it is computer controled and uses G force sens.
As long as decel forces and cornering forces are below 0.5 Gs brake bias to the rear is abt 37% or so.
Once beyond that threshhold the 5volt input is shut and brake bias is restored to 27% to prevent the rear from
overtaking the front

i do know mrec used this sort of tech on ASR cars from late 1995 i think.

As for the polarity i really doubt it makes any diff how u connect it. If one tterminal is wider i would assume its
the live one.
But i guess u know that. Just make sure u use 5volts cause that i do remember clearly cause my mechaninc
refused to install this master on my W124 for fear of me keepin the increased bias active and sendin my ass into some high speed spin.
Wow That would be a cool feature to have. My first guess would have been to try 5 volts as it is safer solution but I don't have a 5V power supply. I guess I will be dealing with enough of this stuff that its time to get one. Or maybe 3D batteries will work for now.

If the only thing this is using from the ESP system is the longitudinal accelerometer and the ESP computer then all I need to do is plug it in. All that stuff is mounted and wired. Does anyone have any more info.
__________________
To see my 129 parts for sale visit:
http://stores.ebay.com/The-Mercedes-SL-Store
John Roncallo
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-31-2009, 03:25 PM
JayRash's Avatar
DON'T PANIC
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Beirut, Lebanon
Posts: 1,281
looking at the ur pic, i can say any polarity can work and u can use a small board with a good quality 5volt regulator to test the switch.
so ESP is running on ur car! Thats freakin amazing man.
And even if its not geting the car going on factory ecu with out the esp cuttiing ur throttle is amazing tooo.
Gr8 respect man.
__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-31-2009, 03:48 PM
88Black560SL
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: CT
Posts: 3,510
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayRash View Post
looking at the ur pic, i can say any polarity can work and u can use a small board with a good quality 5volt regulator to test the switch.
so ESP is running on ur car! Thats freakin amazing man.
And even if its not geting the car going on factory ecu with out the esp cuttiing ur throttle is amazing tooo.
Gr8 respect man.

I'm going to give it a try but I still need to find 5 volts. I have a computer power supply I can use but now you got me thinking that I want to try to drive with this energized and de-energized to see how it works.

No ESP is not running. Everything electrical for ESP is connected except for the pump, hydraulic unit and steering angle sensor. All 4 wheel speed sensors are in place and operational and the ESP computer is installed and wired as well as yaw rate and accelerometers. Possibly this winters project.
__________________
To see my 129 parts for sale visit:
http://stores.ebay.com/The-Mercedes-SL-Store
John Roncallo
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-31-2009, 04:06 PM
JayRash's Avatar
DON'T PANIC
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Beirut, Lebanon
Posts: 1,281
so how come the drive by wire is fully functional. As i recall the m120 ecu wouldnt let u drive if esp had any fault in the system.
Any how i personally hate those new electronic gizzmoz and would rather the simple lsd and if i ever install an lsd on my AMG ill be ditching the ASR, drive by wire and even the ABS, thou i would need to learn to drive without the ABS since i have lost my finesse due to 15yrs of driving with the darn thing.
U know just stomp the pedal as hard as u can especially when the abs kicks in, thats what an official merc test driver once told me, do so so as to make best use of the rear brakes. It has saved my ass many times, but with that brake control is now so back in my brain i once locked all fours on my friend's mitsubishi EVO at 90mph.
Then engine died before the clutch pedal hit the bottom thats how hard i braked, made a fool of me. Lol
__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-31-2009, 05:31 PM
88Black560SL
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: CT
Posts: 3,510
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayRash View Post
so how come the drive by wire is fully functional. As i recall the m120 ecu wouldnt let u drive if esp had any fault in the system.
Any how i personally hate those new electronic gizzmoz and would rather the simple lsd and if i ever install an lsd on my AMG ill be ditching the ASR, drive by wire and even the ABS, thou i would need to learn to drive without the ABS since i have lost my finesse due to 15yrs of driving with the darn thing.
U know just stomp the pedal as hard as u can especially when the abs kicks in, thats what an official merc test driver once told me, do so so as to make best use of the rear brakes. It has saved my ass many times, but with that brake control is now so back in my brain i once locked all fours on my friend's mitsubishi EVO at 90mph.
Then engine died before the clutch pedal hit the bottom thats how hard i braked, made a fool of me. Lol
I don't know. It was my worst nightmare when developing this beast. I thought for sure I was going to have to bite the bullet and complete ESP before I got it going.

I just found out that that little proportioning valve is $1700.00 new. I don't want to screw it up.
__________________
To see my 129 parts for sale visit:
http://stores.ebay.com/The-Mercedes-SL-Store
John Roncallo
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-31-2009, 07:01 PM
88Black560SL
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: CT
Posts: 3,510
I did find out one useful piece of information. That my wire diagram is incorrect. It is calling Y62 "Fuel injectors" and showing it as one valve. It has the same color wires Red/Black and Grey/Green as the wires that originally went to the master. I cross referenced this on my ME diagram and all the injectors are Y64's and they are shown independently.

Since these wires go directly to the ESP computer I can be safe to assume they are 5V. So I will try to figure out a way to get the 5 V to it and bleed the master. Also the wire diagram shows the Red/Black as positive.

I has also come to the conclusion that this valve has nothing to do with BAS as it was used on the 129 as far back as 93, which predates BAS.
__________________
To see my 129 parts for sale visit:
http://stores.ebay.com/The-Mercedes-SL-Store
John Roncallo
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-01-2009, 02:32 AM
JayRash's Avatar
DON'T PANIC
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Beirut, Lebanon
Posts: 1,281
well yes it isnt part of the bas
the bas is slightly off and fixed to the booster with its own line connected to it.
But hell 1700 for what!
__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-01-2009, 07:05 AM
88Black560SL
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: CT
Posts: 3,510
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayRash View Post
well yes it isnt part of the bas
the bas is slightly off and fixed to the booster with its own line connected to it.
But hell 1700 for what!
$1700 for that little gold solenoid valve under the bleeder valve in the previous picture. It's probably made of real gold.
__________________
To see my 129 parts for sale visit:
http://stores.ebay.com/The-Mercedes-SL-Store
John Roncallo
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-01-2009, 09:53 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NY
Posts: 500
Y61 is a 12V valve. Here is WIS bleeding procedure:
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Y61 valve.pdf (26.7 KB, 641 views)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-02-2009, 05:51 PM
88Black560SL
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: CT
Posts: 3,510
Thanks for the reply's everyone. I will been playing with this in the near future. Not sure if I can tell the difference with it either connected or not. I'm going to get some leads and connect it to my Volt meter to see if I get power when I brake hard.

And Myarmy, where are you with the Frankenbenz. Is there a thread or web sight.
__________________
To see my 129 parts for sale visit:
http://stores.ebay.com/The-Mercedes-SL-Store
John Roncallo
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-02-2009, 08:27 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NY
Posts: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roncallo View Post
And Myarmy, where are you with the Frankenbenz. Is there a thread or web sight.
John, I'm not sure I understand...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-03-2009, 02:20 AM
JayRash's Avatar
DON'T PANIC
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Beirut, Lebanon
Posts: 1,281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roncallo View Post
Thanks for the reply's everyone. I will been playing with this in the near future. Not sure if I can tell the difference with it either connected or not. I'm going to get some leads and connect it to my Volt meter to see if I get power when I brake hard.

And Myarmy, where are you with the Frankenbenz. Is there a thread or web sight.
John,
If that valve is what we assume it is and i believe its just that, u should see no voltage output at the terminals. Now it seems that u need to activate this switchover valve to properly bleed the system!

I would say that once u activate it and bleed the system, u will find it fairly easy to tell if its in on mode or off, the rear abs will activate alot sooner under hard braking. and following Mercedes safety logic the valve needs power to be in on mode.
__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-04-2009, 07:48 AM
JayRash's Avatar
DON'T PANIC
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Beirut, Lebanon
Posts: 1,281
John,
find attached this pdf, it confirms that this switchover valve is for brake distribution.
brake_system_function.pdf

__________________
Jay,
-----------------
-1995 Blue W202 C36 AMG (M) SOLD ;(
-1995 Black W140 S500 (Lady)
-1992 Black W124 E300 (Dima) (Ex-Mosselman
Twin turbo Kit).
-1988 Black W124 300 E 4-Matic.(Nadeen)
-1983 Brown W126 500SEL.(Old Lady)(Sold)
-1981 Gold W123 280CE.(Dareen)(Sold)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jayrasheed
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page